Apple Podcasts
Spotify
YouTube
Our No Filer series includes frank conversations about faith and sexuality. On this episode, we welcome Nancy Ross to talk about being a queer pastor in St. George, Utah. Nancy uses the hash #queerpastor to show the LGBTQ community on Twitter that there is a place in Christianity for them.
Host: Brittany Mangelson
Guest: Nancy Ross
Thanks for listening to Project Zion Podcast!
Follow us on Facebook and Instagram!
Intro and Outro music used with permission:
“For Everyone Born,” Community of Christ Sings #285. Music © 2006 Brian Mann, admin. General Board of Global Ministries t/a GBGMusik, 458 Ponce de Leon Avenue, Atlanta, GA 30308. copyright@umcmission.org
“The Trees of the Field,” Community of Christ Sings # 645, Music © 1975 Stuart Dauerman, Lillenas Publishing Company (admin. Music Services).
All music for this episode was performed by Dr. Jan Kraybill, and produced by Chad Godfrey.
NOTE: The series that make up the Project Zion Podcast explore the unique spiritual and theological gifts Community of Christ offers for today's world. Although Project Zion Podcast is a Ministry of Community of Christ. The views and opinions expressed in this episode are those speaking and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Community of Christ.
WEBVTT
00:00:18.329 --> 00:00:20.550
Welcome to the Project Zion podcast.
00:00:20.820 --> 00:00:28.140
This podcast explores the unique spiritual and theological gifts community of Christ offers for today's world.
00:00:34.380 --> 00:00:35.159
Hello everyone.
00:00:35.161 --> 00:00:36.950
Welcome to Project Zion podcast.
00:00:36.951 --> 00:00:40.229
This is Brittany Mangelson and I will be your host for today.
00:00:40.560 --> 00:00:50.219
And today we have on a repeat guest as part of our No Filter series, which is all about faith and gender and sexuality.
00:00:50.729 --> 00:00:52.649
So we have on Nancy Ross.
00:00:52.649 --> 00:00:55.289
Which Nancy, I'm really excited to have you on today.
00:00:55.710 --> 00:00:57.299
I'm always happy to be here, Brittany.
00:00:58.200 --> 00:01:03.689
And like I said, we've had Nancy on before and we've talked about her faith transition story.
00:01:03.691 --> 00:01:26.219
We've talked about faith and feminism, we've talked about stages of faith, but today we're going to be talking about a hashtag that she has used on Twitter and it is#queerpastor and Nancy and I, we both follow a lot of progressive faith people LGBTQ inclusive pastors and clergy on Twitter.
00:01:26.489 --> 00:01:37.230
And so there is just this whole community that's really trying to push boundaries as far as what Christianity stereotypically looks like and who can be involved with Christianity.
00:01:37.469 --> 00:01:48.510
And so I have seen Nancy's posts and I just really wanted to get her on to talk about the use of this hashtag and how it's been perceived in the community.
00:01:48.510 --> 00:01:50.219
So thank you Nancy.
00:01:50.879 --> 00:01:52.829
So I'm thrilled.
00:01:52.859 --> 00:01:57.000
So Nancy, why don't you just catch us up to speed a little bit.
00:01:57.030 --> 00:02:04.769
Maybe just give like an elevator pitch of who you are, where you are, and then how you got to where you're at today?
00:02:06.209 --> 00:02:07.260
Sure.
00:02:06.209 --> 00:02:28.800
So I was a Mormon for the first 35 years of my life and for the last four years I have been in community of Christ and I was ordained and I was confirmed about three years ago, ordained about a year and a half ago and earlier this year became pastor of the emerging, Southern Utah Community of Christ emerging congregation.
00:02:29.460 --> 00:02:41.669
And it was, it was kind of near the end of my time as an LDS person that I was really trying to come to terms with my identity as a bisexual Mormon woman.
00:02:42.210 --> 00:02:57.629
And in 2013 for a Lent, I decided I was still Mormons and Mormons don't typically observe Lent, but I decided that I was going to give up my shame for Lent because that seemed like a good thing to give up for Lent.
00:02:57.990 --> 00:03:07.719
My shame about bisexual and I read at that time Brene' Brown's Daring Greatly to kind of begin to work through that shame.
00:03:08.110 --> 00:03:19.780
I can't say that I completely gave up shame for lent, but I feel like it was a good goal for me and I was able to make progress and maybe come to terms with an identity that I'd had for a long time but felt deeply uncomfortable about.
00:03:20.590 --> 00:03:41.949
And another thing, another complication of being LDS and having an LGBT identity is it, if people know in your congregation, then you might have an asterisk placed on your church records that would prevent you from being ever able to work with children or youth.
00:03:42.069 --> 00:03:48.669
And I spent a lot of time working with children when I was Mormon and, and I enjoyed that and I wanted to be able to continue doing that.
00:03:48.670 --> 00:03:54.099
And I was really afraid that if I came out to people as bi that that would end.
00:03:54.100 --> 00:04:01.689
And I would also say that the only other group of people who gets an asterisk in their records are like convicted sexual offenders.
00:04:01.691 --> 00:04:10.900
So LGBT identities are often kind of conflated with sexual abusers or sexual predation and the LDS church.
00:04:11.319 --> 00:04:24.639
And even though that seems like a very old idea, that's often an idea that can kind of come up and it can make coming out really hard and filled with shame, which is, you know, very much part of my experience.
00:04:25.829 --> 00:04:26.310
Yes.
00:04:26.310 --> 00:04:43.800
So that's, that's why I think that this hashtag that you've used has been, and just how open you've been in general has been so empowering for me to see because you have been able to take back and take back that shame and, and not let it control you.
00:04:44.189 --> 00:04:44.550
Right.
00:04:44.730 --> 00:04:52.620
And I think one of the, one of the most difficult things to overcome at the beginning of that process was to tell people was to kind of come out to people.
00:04:52.620 --> 00:05:03.209
And I still only ever kind of come out in a face to face way with people who I know were gonna respect what I have to say, um, or respect my identity.
00:05:03.689 --> 00:05:17.040
And so one thing I realized fairly early in this process was that when I came out to friends who I knew would be accepting of, so I've been married to my husband for more than 15 years and we're totally monogamous and that's not going to change.
00:05:17.040 --> 00:05:20.370
So that's like also, you know, part of, part of the deal here.
00:05:20.790 --> 00:05:26.970
But still, I feel like my bisexuality speaks to an important part of like who I am at my work.
00:05:27.569 --> 00:05:40.709
And I started realizing that I could release some of this shame by just telling my secret to people and, and receiving loving, affirming responses in return.
00:05:41.160 --> 00:05:51.810
And that was a really important in like, in the last five, six years, that's been a really important process of letting go of shame, which can be such a destructive thing.
00:05:52.769 --> 00:06:05.610
And when I spend time on Twitter, especially, you know, there's a large of former Mormon crowd on Twitter and really a large progressive Christian crowd on Twitter or progressive religion crowd on Twitter.
00:06:06.060 --> 00:06:19.589
And I saw lots of folks tweeting about LGBT folks, former Mormon LGBT folks tweeting about coming out the difficulties that they experienced in their lives and that kind of thing.
00:06:19.591 --> 00:06:37.410
And I wanted to be able to offer not only love and support as like another queer, former Mormon, but also to be able to say and affirm love and belonging to God or from a religious perspective.
00:06:37.439 --> 00:06:48.540
Because so like if what I have received in my life is so much rejection or even just rejection of idea, like the November 5th policy or the exclusion policy, it was devastating.
00:06:48.540 --> 00:06:52.680
And that ended my time in as an LDS person, as a Mormon.
00:06:52.769 --> 00:07:01.620
And I'm feeling so much rejection, you know, really needs to be countered with love and acceptance and, and that's so, so important.
00:07:02.220 --> 00:07:14.490
But then also knowing that for former Mormon folks or for Mormon folks who are LGBT identified, but so much of that shame has come from organized religion, right?
00:07:14.490 --> 00:07:16.620
It's coming from their religious environment.
00:07:17.189 --> 00:07:26.310
And I feel like one of the things that God has called me to is to offer affirmation of identity and belonging.
00:07:27.149 --> 00:07:34.769
I'm related to identity as a pastor, as a local religious leader, as someone who is ordained.
00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:36.930
And to be able to say God loves you.
00:07:36.930 --> 00:07:42.149
You are made in the image of God and that identity is Holy and sacred.
00:07:42.779 --> 00:07:59.759
And so I feel like the queer pastor, hashtag that I sometimes use sometimes it just feels very vulnerable, comes from this place of wanting to affirm people from a similar kind of position to the crowd who has rejected them, right?
00:07:59.759 --> 00:08:10.860
Like, and not that that undoes the hurt and the pain, but it is to show something else like God and religion are not fundamentally opposed to LGBT identities.
00:08:11.279 --> 00:08:13.649
God created all of these identities, right?
00:08:13.680 --> 00:08:17.370
And we are left to experience and understand them.
00:08:17.879 --> 00:08:25.290
And so it's just really important to me to be able to offer love.
00:08:25.290 --> 00:08:27.569
And acceptance to people often on Twitter.
00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:41.940
Twitter seems to be the place to do this or where this comes up a lot from that position of being a, like a local faith leader in a progressive denomination is to counter that message.
00:08:41.941 --> 00:08:46.679
And I realized that I cannot counter all of the Mormon homophobia and transphobia.
00:08:46.710 --> 00:09:06.779
Like that's not a thing I can do on my own, but I can push back and I can offer folks maybe the thing that they wish they had heard a long time ago that I'm certainly offering when I offer love and affirmation, I'm certainly offering the thing I wish that I had heard a long time ago.
00:09:07.019 --> 00:09:07.830
Does that make sense?
00:09:08.360 --> 00:09:09.590
It makes a lot of sense.
00:09:09.591 --> 00:09:17.299
And I think that there are multiple layers to this because not only are you a queer person, but you're a queer woman.
00:09:17.539 --> 00:09:30.740
So the fact that you are ordained again in a very conservative area and then coming from a very conservative religion and people know you in Mormon feminist spaces.
00:09:30.799 --> 00:09:32.750
And so I really appreciate it.
00:09:33.440 --> 00:09:48.049
I've talked to, well my evangelists, Kris Judd and she and I have often talked about how when you feel like there's only two choices in front of you, actually there probably is at least one more way, you know, a third way.
00:09:48.259 --> 00:09:56.299
Cause if both binaries of a decision are causing you to stress or they're not really where you fit, then forging your own way in the middle.
00:09:56.600 --> 00:10:00.230
And finding that third option is sometimes the best thing you can do.
00:10:00.230 --> 00:10:19.519
And I feel like that's what a lot of Latter-day Seekers now members of Community of Christ or members of other churches who have gone and become ordained ministers or who have even just align themselves with a progressive religion, they, they've been able to find a third way.
00:10:19.519 --> 00:10:30.799
And so I feel like that's what I see you doing with this queer pastor hashtag is that you don't have to say that you can only find healing by rejecting all of religion.
00:10:31.009 --> 00:10:39.049
And I, and I'm not saying that that's rejecting all religion is, is the wrong answer because for a lot of people it, there's just too much hurt.
00:10:39.919 --> 00:10:47.240
But you also don't have to stay in an institution that isn't affirming of you and isn't going to accept all of who you are.
00:10:47.240 --> 00:11:17.629
And so you've been able to find this middle ground of faith on your own terms, religion on your own terms, in a community that affirms you and allows you to have what you said, you know your ideas, your, your part of your personality that makes the all of you and you haven't had to reject that and hide that, but you've been able to bring that to the table, bring that to your ministry and then show other people that, that that's a viable option, which is really awesome.
00:11:18.120 --> 00:11:26.940
When I think about the things that have like, you know, what am I called to do or what am I called to do in Southern Utah or what am I called to do in St George?
00:11:27.360 --> 00:11:34.320
I feel like this is a really big part of that and it's just the disruption of doing something different, right?
00:11:34.321 --> 00:11:46.049
Like, if we have this idea that, you know, religion says, you know, religion is like this, then part of what I think I need to do is to show people, n o religion can be like that.
00:11:47.070 --> 00:12:02.419
And when we organize in for faith or church or belief or spirituality but can include the acceptance and like the deep acceptance and affirmation of belonging for groups that have traditionally been rejected by church.
00:12:02.899 --> 00:12:10.789
One way that we do this in my congregation as i t w ere very involved with pride in pride of Southern Utah is the organization.
00:12:11.940 --> 00:12:24.799
And, and we organize an interfaith service together with pride and, and you know, we try to, you know, partner with our other more progressive faith traditions in, in the local area.
00:12:24.980 --> 00:12:30.769
And our, we had St George's really hot in the summer, so we tend to celebrate pride in September.
00:12:31.309 --> 00:12:38.120
And at our last interfaith event we had, um, between 80 and a hundred people show up, which was super awesome.
00:12:38.120 --> 00:12:40.669
It was our biggest interfaith event in every year.
00:12:40.671 --> 00:13:04.940
We try to bring in new and kind of expand our, um, LGBT affirming clergy group that offers prayers and blessings to the LGBT community and just to show people that there is really something that there is something different that it's not, and it's not even just me, it's, it's like other other groups or just Community of Christ, right?
00:13:04.941 --> 00:13:17.000
There are other groups that also see this issue of LGBT inclusion differently and that we can name that in public spaces and we can say that and we aren't ashamed of this.
00:13:17.000 --> 00:13:19.190
This isn't like a shame filled issue.
00:13:19.191 --> 00:13:24.950
We're trying to kind of keep naming this affirmation to counter that sense of shame.
00:13:25.399 --> 00:13:40.700
My congregation also has a booth at our pride celebration where we, you know, handout rainbow buttons or stickers or let them know again that we can offer affirmation from a place of faith and Christian belief.
00:13:41.570 --> 00:13:54.289
And we now see other congregations like the Episcopals in St George also having booths and, and we feel like in my congregation that this is a good way to be doing the work of God in our community.
00:13:56.419 --> 00:14:03.110
So Nancy, I'm curious because I have participated with my congregation in several pride events as well.
00:14:03.500 --> 00:14:07.700
And a lot of times when people come up to our booth, they approach us.
00:14:07.759 --> 00:14:37.159
I mean they, they are very open and honest with, with how much religion has harmed them and they're shocked that a church would be at pride and there's, uh, immediately some distrust and yet intrigue because people are like, okay, what is this church and being Community of Christ in Utah as you know, there's always that, okay, how do I articulate who we are without being completely anti-Mormon?
00:14:37.160 --> 00:14:42.379
And I'm using air quotes there, but, um, you know, it, it's difficult to, to talk about.
00:14:42.380 --> 00:14:46.549
And so I'm just wondering, uh, how that's been for you down in St George.
00:14:46.551 --> 00:14:52.320
When people approach you either at pride or if they walk into your congregation, how is that, how does that understanding happen?
00:14:51.929 --> 00:14:52.320
Of like, yes, we have shared history and shared roots and yet we are affirming or just doing the Jesus thing here in our own way and it works.
00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:52.620
Yeah.
00:15:07.500 --> 00:15:14.610
And, you know, I feel like for me this gets easier to, you know, at the messiness of this gets easier to speak to the more practice I have.
00:15:14.850 --> 00:15:17.909
So like every pride it gets like a little, a little easier.
00:15:17.910 --> 00:15:36.929
So we show up at pride with like all the rainbow things because that's part of pride and, and people are often surprised and see the thing is if someone says to me, you know, I've really been harmed by organized religion, I don't feel like that harms my faith or my position in any way.
00:15:38.070 --> 00:15:40.559
I'm probably quite likely to agree with them, you know?
00:15:40.590 --> 00:15:40.860
Right.
00:15:40.860 --> 00:15:49.889
Like, and, and, and, and I think that I can feel confident in speaking to those things because of the fact that I've been through faith transition.
00:15:49.889 --> 00:15:55.049
I've tried to do a tremendous amount of reflection through this process of faith transition and faith transformation.
00:15:55.409 --> 00:16:05.549
And so when someone expresses that organized religion has really hurt them and the process, I don't feel like that is in any way a challenge to me.
00:16:06.090 --> 00:16:12.149
Like, I can totally agree with them and that, and people are often surprised by that.
00:16:12.179 --> 00:16:16.049
They feel like as a religious person I should be, you know, really defensive about that.
00:16:16.529 --> 00:16:19.320
And that is just not something I am defensive about.
00:16:19.409 --> 00:16:31.259
Which I think helps because I think when we can respond with listening and understanding, that's a super helpful part of this.
00:16:31.260 --> 00:16:35.100
But people are often surprised when they walk by our booth at pride.
00:16:35.139 --> 00:16:38.159
They're like, Oh, I didn't think there'd be any churches here.
00:16:38.429 --> 00:16:45.299
And one thing I try to emphasize in our congregation is that we're just trying to show people that there's another way to do religion.
00:16:45.809 --> 00:16:49.830
Like there's another way, like just as you were saying the, the, you know, it's not this or that.
00:16:49.831 --> 00:16:51.600
There are other ways to do this.
00:16:52.230 --> 00:16:58.559
And actually some of the most critical comments we tend to get are from people who are at pride to protest pride.
00:16:59.039 --> 00:17:12.150
There was someone this last year who kind of near the end of pride kind of gotten my face and was telling me that I was doing my Christianity all wrong and I just disagree in the strongest possible terms.
00:17:13.349 --> 00:17:20.039
And um, I really feel like no one gets to interpret the message of Jesus for me.
00:17:20.730 --> 00:17:32.220
And I feel like what we do in our congregation and the church and like the national conference in the United States with being fully inclusive of LGBT folks is perfectly consistent with the message of Jesus.
00:17:33.269 --> 00:17:56.990
And, and there are a lot of theologians and church folks out there who understand that the message of Jesus was really trying to challenge so much of the purity culture of his time and the, the purity culture of our time, you know, LGBT identities, but that God calls us to reject that rejection.
00:17:57.009 --> 00:18:12.359
Say, you know, religion is not about the checklist of rules and how well we police ourselves in the minutiae of things like ideas or thoughts or sexuality even, but really in what we're doing.
00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:17.460
But like, but like there, there is more and there is often a third way, right?
00:18:17.461 --> 00:18:19.529
It's not just like this way or that way.
00:18:19.530 --> 00:18:22.859
We can choose to set a different kind of example.
00:18:22.980 --> 00:18:25.829
And that is what I feel called to do.
00:18:26.220 --> 00:18:26.549
Yeah.
00:18:27.349 --> 00:18:28.339
Thank you so much.
00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:32.480
I am reminded, I recently recorded a podcast with Robin.
00:18:32.181 --> 00:18:37.460
It hasn't aired yet, but maybe by the time this one airs that one will be up.
00:18:37.759 --> 00:18:51.650
But I, I talk about how I had to detach the gospel of Jesus from motherhood because for me, being a parent and being a mom was what the gospel was all about.
00:18:52.069 --> 00:18:57.829
And I think that that really relates with the LGBT plight as well.
00:18:57.830 --> 00:19:06.859
Because when you come from a church that has marriage kind of at the, at the center, because you don't fit that narrative at all.
00:19:07.190 --> 00:19:13.910
And so as you're talking, it just kind of reminded me of, of my own experience having to find a different way to do the gospel.
00:19:13.911 --> 00:19:22.190
So if the gospel wasn't all about motherhood or if at all, if it wasn't all about traditional marriage and traditional gender roles, then what's the point?
00:19:22.789 --> 00:19:27.829
So there's a whole theological deconstruction and reconstruction that needs to happen.
00:19:28.369 --> 00:19:33.829
Not just saying like, Oh, well we are theologically the same with other.
00:19:34.279 --> 00:19:47.180
Uh, and I don't mean to, I'm not trying to just call out the LDS church because this is, I mean, evangelicalism, Christianity all over the place is very, very much into heteronormative gender roles and things like that.
00:19:47.390 --> 00:19:54.950
But to take the gospel of Jesus and to divorce it from all of that is a huge theological undertaking.
00:19:55.279 --> 00:20:04.940
So I'm wondering, Nancy, as you have done that, uh, and now you are in seminary, so you're doing this to an even more intentional, rigorous degree.
00:20:05.240 --> 00:20:06.410
What's been helpful?
00:20:06.500 --> 00:20:13.490
How, how have you been able to encounter this new gospel or this new way of looking at Jesus?
00:20:13.849 --> 00:20:18.710
Are there theologians that have maybe been helpful or just what's been helpful?
00:20:19.369 --> 00:20:28.160
Yeah, so I think one thing to understand is that reconstructing faith or belief or theology is a slow process, right?
00:20:28.161 --> 00:20:32.900
It's not that you can just read one book and be like, okay, I'm done, we're good.
00:20:32.930 --> 00:20:37.609
You know, I'm moving on with a new faith and it's, it's not that simple for me.
00:20:37.611 --> 00:20:44.269
It's probably been reading a lot of different books and also trying to reflect on my own experience.
00:20:45.109 --> 00:21:14.859
One of the first things that we talked about in seminary in my like intro theology class was how was the Wesleyan quadrilateral and how we construct theology from a mixture of experience, personal experience and reason and scripture and tradition and that we can use, we can kind of use, and we do use all those different things to construct what it is that we call belief or theology.
00:21:15.400 --> 00:21:27.549
And so now I kind of realized that instead of, I felt like in my former religious life, the goal was to get to a single place and then just to stay there in that belief place for the rest of my life.
00:21:28.569 --> 00:21:46.029
And now I understand that theology and belief in faith and spirituality are journeys and I am on the journey and I read a lot and those different things that I'm reading kind of caused me to reflect in different ways on what I might believe.
00:21:46.630 --> 00:22:07.269
For a long time you had suggested reading Marcus Borg's meeting Jesus again for the very first time and I finally did read that, which was a really good one and probably something I wish I'd read much earlier and my faith journey, but also an important one for me was like Walter Bergman's Prophetic Imagination and trying to understand well what, what was it?
00:22:07.390 --> 00:22:08.470
What is it to be a prophet?
00:22:08.471 --> 00:22:11.289
Exactly in a tradition that has embraced prophets.
00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:13.089
What is it to read?
00:22:13.090 --> 00:22:16.240
Feminist theology or what is it to read Liberation theology.
00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:31.930
We've read a lot of liberation theology and black liberation theology and seminary and I feel like those have really helped me to understand the concept of liberation and and where that comes from and that God stands with the poor and God stands with the oppressed.
00:22:32.049 --> 00:22:34.509
And those are ideas that resonate very strongly with me.
00:22:35.380 --> 00:22:58.690
And so I think now that faith faith is a journey like learning to read scripture again has been along in a hard journey because for a long time I've just felt really freaked out by trying to read scripture and that's something that we've been working on and my congregation, you know, reforming faith and rebuilding faith is just a really slow and difficult process.
00:22:58.779 --> 00:23:32.019
One thing that I now understand about my own journey and I can see in other people who I'm kind of walking with in their journeys is that we often get to a place where we have to reform God because I came to a place where I realized that the God I hadn't been, you know, worshiping or acknowledging my whole life, that guy was like a jerk and I didn't want to like I was, I was going to have to let go of that or or in my mind or allow that to be transformed into something else and do a better God and ideas from process theology really helped me.
00:23:32.049 --> 00:23:58.220
My pastor at the time, Emily Rose really helped me, pointed me in a direction of some resources with process theology that would help me maybe create a more lasting God and I can sound like a really strange idea, but if you've never had really terrible experiences with God, then, then you might not understand the need to reform God, but I feel like it's such a journey and I'm surprised.
00:23:59.180 --> 00:24:12.829
I'm surprised at how long it takes and how messy it is and how I'm probably going to be thinking about who God is and maybe changing some of those ideas now throughout my life.
00:24:12.830 --> 00:24:25.579
So now there's no longer I need to get to a particular place and just stay there for a really long time, but an understanding that like what I believe and my faith are going to change throughout the course of my life.
00:24:25.580 --> 00:24:29.779
That's okay, that's normal and I'm allowed to do that.
00:24:30.549 --> 00:24:35.079
Yeah, that's a really a difficult place to get to.
00:24:35.259 --> 00:24:43.539
Being okay with understanding that you are going to change and giving yourself the permission and the liberty and the grace to theologically page.
00:24:43.569 --> 00:24:53.710
I know that that's been difficult for me because I, when I exited seminary, I felt like, okay, I should have it all figured out by now.
00:24:53.711 --> 00:25:03.849
Like I just spent two years in intense study and I realized that I actually probably left seminary with more questions than I had at the beginning.
00:25:03.851 --> 00:25:06.910
So that was, that was interesting for me.
00:25:06.911 --> 00:25:22.029
But I, uh, I do think that there's a lot of of liberation in being able to study different perspectives and theologies because you don't have to have it all figured out, which is scary and vulnerable, but kind of exciting,
00:25:22.509 --> 00:25:29.109
Totally exciting! And, and I think then that faith can be a little bit more of an adventure, you know?
00:25:29.589 --> 00:25:32.230
Um, like it's, it's a journey, but it could also be an adventure.
00:25:32.380 --> 00:25:49.990
And I feel like seminary has so far this semester, I'm just wrapping up final projects and things this week has really been kind of an exciting adventure where I have been learning some things that I wanted to learn for awhile and I've encountered some readings I definitely don't agree with.
00:25:50.799 --> 00:25:51.789
And that's okay.
00:25:52.380 --> 00:25:59.859
And, and I, and like you said, I have a lot of questions, but that's okay that I have questions and that's not a problem.
00:26:00.940 --> 00:26:22.509
It's like I have to keep reminding myself that my questions and my challenges all stem from a place of wanting to better understand God and I feel like fundamentally God is okay with that and that that is just gonna be a kind of messy and difficult process.
00:26:22.509 --> 00:26:42.579
I feel like the God that I believe in now is robust enough to handle my questions and to handle my doubts and that doubting is something that through exploring doubt or trying to better understand my doubt or my questions is also something that becomes part of a cycle of building faith.
00:26:43.289 --> 00:26:57.150
And so that questioning and searching and seeking is just probably part of a lifelong journey adventure that I'm going to be on and I'm making peace.
00:26:57.210 --> 00:27:04.170
Like you said, it takes a while to make peace with that and I still feel like I'm working on that whole making peace with it thing.
00:27:05.809 --> 00:27:08.509
I super love that you brought up faith adventure.
00:27:08.510 --> 00:27:28.490
I just recorded a witness the word sermon in independence, and that was the scripture that I based my thing on my, you know, that your faith adventure with God because I have been very well when we talk about faith crisis's crises, a lot of people, they don't like that term necessarily.
00:27:28.490 --> 00:27:36.619
And I'm one that did defend the term because for me it was a crisis and it took a long time for me to be able to see it as an adventure.
00:27:37.700 --> 00:27:41.119
I remember when I read that scripture, it almost felt like a challenge.
00:27:41.121 --> 00:27:47.809
Like, Whoa, I pretty much hate God right now, but apparently this whole thing can be seen as an adventure, you know?
00:27:48.019 --> 00:27:49.220
And, and yeah.
00:27:49.221 --> 00:27:56.329
So I like that reframing and I'm now to a place where I accept that as a, as, as the viable option, the third way.
00:27:56.330 --> 00:27:57.740
But it did take me awhile.
00:27:59.390 --> 00:27:59.869
Totally.
00:27:59.871 --> 00:28:08.299
And it's very, you know, it's very hard when we come from black and white thinking environments to be able to say, Hmm, neither of these options are really working for me.
00:28:08.630 --> 00:28:09.619
I'm going to do something else.
00:28:10.279 --> 00:28:30.500
Because in me there's, there's maybe a little bit I like, I've never been a rebellious person in my life except for maybe the last five or six years and and so there's like a little bit of rebellious spirit, but then there's the part of me that's always been like the good girl conformist who always internally freaks out about paving third ways.
00:28:31.549 --> 00:28:44.359
But now I feel such a that I am right drawn to resist the traditional narratives that we've told ourselves about faith or about belief wherever those are coming from.
00:28:45.049 --> 00:28:49.369
And that we live in an era.
00:28:49.400 --> 00:28:54.589
I think that we have to talk about like the era of the nuns or declining religious participation.
00:28:55.009 --> 00:29:07.099
And my history of Christianity professor reminded us a couple of weeks ago that all of these like moments of religious decline are always kind of followed by spiritual renewal.
00:29:07.789 --> 00:29:20.750
And I am trying to anticipate that spiritual renewal, not just for myself because I've been going through a spiritual renewal of sorts and a faith trend in the context of a faith transition.
00:29:21.319 --> 00:29:27.859
But that I would love to see our culture more broadly engaging in a kind of renewal.
00:29:28.069 --> 00:29:32.690
So I'm just trying to anticipate the future, whatever that means.
00:29:34.059 --> 00:29:41.680
Well I hear ya and it's, it's a little bit daunting but exciting and I assume there will be a lot of adventures to be had.
00:29:44.900 --> 00:29:54.039
That's just like the nicest possible way and I think it's also worth pointing out, like you say that sometimes I use the word faith transition a lot because I feel like it is a more neutral term.
00:29:54.309 --> 00:30:01.630
But you were, you said just that you were defending the term faith crisis and when I was experiencing the worst of it, it was definitely crisis.
00:30:01.660 --> 00:30:06.579
And now I'm going to label it all with adventure and put like a more positive and exciting spin on it.
00:30:07.059 --> 00:30:11.380
But these processes are messy and they are difficult.
00:30:11.859 --> 00:30:17.859
And you know, I will still tweet things with the hashtag like queer pastor and think, did I do the right thing?
00:30:17.920 --> 00:30:19.750
Am I saying too much about myself?
00:30:19.839 --> 00:30:29.019
Or inevitably I will have some kind of crisis the week before pride or I will ask myself, am I doing the right thing or am I doing the right thing in the right way?
00:30:29.380 --> 00:30:39.670
And so I just keep trying to remind myself that no, these, these are the things that I feel God has called me to.
00:30:39.671 --> 00:30:43.539
So I'm going to live them out in the best way that I can.
00:30:43.900 --> 00:30:47.349
And it is going to be messy because God is messy.
00:30:47.680 --> 00:30:48.009
So.
00:30:48.880 --> 00:30:49.779
Exactly.
00:30:50.200 --> 00:30:50.920
Oh, I love it.
00:30:52.150 --> 00:30:54.970
So Nancy, I have a few more questions.
00:30:55.000 --> 00:31:08.589
I am intrigued by I guess just your community in st George and when you are working together with other congregations, partnering with pride, different events, things like that.
00:31:09.430 --> 00:31:11.470
Uh, what have you learned in the process?
00:31:11.471 --> 00:31:31.269
Because another aspect of our upbringing is that you don't necessarily do ecumenical work and so to do ecumenical work based on a ministry for a marginalized group that the predominant culture has caused harm towards.
00:31:31.270 --> 00:31:35.289
I'm trying to be respectful here, but we all know what I'm trying to say.
00:31:35.619 --> 00:31:46.630
I mean you are rallying together with other clergy and other faith communities to a show a third way to people who have been hurt by the predominant culture.
00:31:47.140 --> 00:31:59.799
And so I'm wondering how that has been, what that's looked like, what lessons you've learned or maybe if there have been any surprises or just kind of walk us through how that's been.
00:32:00.289 --> 00:32:14.960
Yeah, so one of the things that has surprised me in doing some of the pride work is the way in which, so coming from an LDS background, there's within the LDS church, this is program called correlation.
00:32:15.559 --> 00:32:21.650
And the goal of correlation is to try and like make sure everybody believes the same thing or something like that.
00:32:22.099 --> 00:32:31.339
Other traditions, especially mainline Protestant traditions don't have that same impulse.
00:32:32.029 --> 00:32:38.509
And so, uh, so for instance, we have a number of churches in St George besides the LDS church.
00:32:38.990 --> 00:32:44.539
And s o that a lign with that, that are, y ou k now, from mainline traditions.
00:32:45.049 --> 00:32:53.720
And a number of those congregations are not LGBT affirming, even if their denominations are LGBT affirming.
00:32:54.349 --> 00:32:58.339
And this is something that I feel a bit frustrated with.
00:32:58.819 --> 00:33:10.579
When I'm sometime talking sometimes talking to clergy from traditions who are affirming but their congregation is not affirming or t hey a re not affirming.
00:33:10.579 --> 00:33:15.019
So there's a lot of variety in how people address this issue.
00:33:15.020 --> 00:33:23.059
And in other traditions there's probably a big tent of belief as there is in most traditions and including in the LDS church, right?
00:33:23.060 --> 00:33:24.890
Really big and wide tensive beliefs.
00:33:24.920 --> 00:33:27.289
People often believe very different things.
00:33:27.710 --> 00:33:32.779
And so the goal or one of the goals is to always be feeling clergy out.
00:33:33.079 --> 00:33:35.660
Like where are you on this issue?
00:33:35.661 --> 00:33:43.519
Like and for some people they might be LGBT affirming but not have done a lot of like work to become an ally yet.
00:33:44.180 --> 00:33:45.559
And we've definitely experienced that.
00:33:45.650 --> 00:34:03.289
And so, and other people speak with more ease about LGBT issues and so we are trying to, or I've been trying to understand better what is the flavor or particular positions of the local clergy and their congregations.
00:34:03.290 --> 00:34:05.450
What are those congregations like?
00:34:05.809 --> 00:34:08.989
Where do those clergy sit in relation to those issues?
00:34:09.619 --> 00:34:21.199
And so then church and church partnerships become complicated because just because a group is from X denomination doesn't mean that they're going to embrace why ideas.
00:34:21.320 --> 00:34:27.199
So, so it's just been like, who are my, who are my partners in this area?
00:34:27.889 --> 00:34:34.730
And that's just been, you know, a process of getting to know people and also being disappointed.
00:34:35.360 --> 00:34:46.969
Like, because there are a few folks I just feel like, Oh, they're such wonderful local leaders or they're charismatic and I just wish we could have them on board with LGBT inclusion.
00:00:18.329 --> 00:00:20.550
00:00:20.820 --> 00:00:28.140
00:00:34.380 --> 00:00:35.159
00:00:35.161 --> 00:00:36.950
00:00:36.951 --> 00:00:40.229
00:00:40.560 --> 00:00:50.219
00:00:50.729 --> 00:00:52.649
00:00:52.649 --> 00:00:55.289
00:00:55.710 --> 00:00:57.299
00:00:58.200 --> 00:01:03.689
00:01:03.691 --> 00:01:26.219
00:01:26.489 --> 00:01:37.230
00:01:37.469 --> 00:01:48.510
00:01:48.510 --> 00:01:50.219
00:01:50.879 --> 00:01:52.829
00:01:52.859 --> 00:01:57.000
00:01:57.030 --> 00:02:04.769
00:02:06.209 --> 00:02:07.260
00:02:06.209 --> 00:02:28.800
00:02:29.460 --> 00:02:41.669
00:02:42.210 --> 00:02:57.629
00:02:57.990 --> 00:03:07.719
00:03:08.110 --> 00:03:19.780
00:03:20.590 --> 00:03:41.949
00:03:42.069 --> 00:03:48.669
00:03:48.670 --> 00:03:54.099
00:03:54.100 --> 00:04:01.689
00:04:01.691 --> 00:04:10.900
00:04:11.319 --> 00:04:24.639
00:04:25.829 --> 00:04:26.310
00:04:26.310 --> 00:04:43.800
00:04:44.189 --> 00:04:44.550
00:04:44.730 --> 00:04:52.620
00:04:52.620 --> 00:05:03.209
00:05:03.689 --> 00:05:17.040
00:05:17.040 --> 00:05:20.370
00:05:20.790 --> 00:05:26.970
00:05:27.569 --> 00:05:40.709
00:05:41.160 --> 00:05:51.810
00:05:52.769 --> 00:06:05.610
00:06:06.060 --> 00:06:19.589
00:06:19.591 --> 00:06:37.410
00:06:37.439 --> 00:06:48.540
00:06:48.540 --> 00:06:52.680
00:06:52.769 --> 00:07:01.620
00:07:02.220 --> 00:07:14.490
00:07:14.490 --> 00:07:16.620
00:07:17.189 --> 00:07:26.310
00:07:27.149 --> 00:07:34.769
00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:36.930
00:07:36.930 --> 00:07:42.149
00:07:42.779 --> 00:07:59.759
00:07:59.759 --> 00:08:10.860
00:08:11.279 --> 00:08:13.649
00:08:13.680 --> 00:08:17.370
00:08:17.879 --> 00:08:25.290
00:08:25.290 --> 00:08:27.569
00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:41.940
00:08:41.941 --> 00:08:46.679
00:08:46.710 --> 00:09:06.779
00:09:07.019 --> 00:09:07.830
00:09:08.360 --> 00:09:09.590
00:09:09.591 --> 00:09:17.299
00:09:17.539 --> 00:09:30.740
00:09:30.799 --> 00:09:32.750
00:09:33.440 --> 00:09:48.049
00:09:48.259 --> 00:09:56.299
00:09:56.600 --> 00:10:00.230
00:10:00.230 --> 00:10:19.519
00:10:19.519 --> 00:10:30.799
00:10:31.009 --> 00:10:39.049
00:10:39.919 --> 00:10:47.240
00:10:47.240 --> 00:11:17.629
00:11:18.120 --> 00:11:26.940
00:11:27.360 --> 00:11:34.320
00:11:34.321 --> 00:11:46.049
00:11:47.070 --> 00:12:02.419
00:12:02.899 --> 00:12:10.789
00:12:11.940 --> 00:12:24.799
00:12:24.980 --> 00:12:30.769
00:12:31.309 --> 00:12:38.120
00:12:38.120 --> 00:12:40.669
00:12:40.671 --> 00:13:04.940
00:13:04.941 --> 00:13:17.000
00:13:17.000 --> 00:13:19.190
00:13:19.191 --> 00:13:24.950
00:13:25.399 --> 00:13:40.700
00:13:41.570 --> 00:13:54.289
00:13:56.419 --> 00:14:03.110
00:14:03.500 --> 00:14:07.700
00:14:07.759 --> 00:14:37.159
00:14:37.160 --> 00:14:42.379
00:14:42.380 --> 00:14:46.549
00:14:46.551 --> 00:14:52.320
00:14:51.929 --> 00:14:52.320
00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:52.620
00:15:07.500 --> 00:15:14.610
00:15:14.850 --> 00:15:17.909
00:15:17.910 --> 00:15:36.929
00:15:38.070 --> 00:15:40.559
00:15:40.590 --> 00:15:40.860
00:15:40.860 --> 00:15:49.889
00:15:49.889 --> 00:15:55.049
00:15:55.409 --> 00:16:05.549
00:16:06.090 --> 00:16:12.149
00:16:12.179 --> 00:16:16.049
00:16:16.529 --> 00:16:19.320
00:16:19.409 --> 00:16:31.259
00:16:31.260 --> 00:16:35.100
00:16:35.139 --> 00:16:38.159
00:16:38.429 --> 00:16:45.299
00:16:45.809 --> 00:16:49.830
00:16:49.831 --> 00:16:51.600
00:16:52.230 --> 00:16:58.559
00:16:59.039 --> 00:17:12.150
00:17:13.349 --> 00:17:20.039
00:17:20.730 --> 00:17:32.220
00:17:33.269 --> 00:17:56.990
00:17:57.009 --> 00:18:12.359
00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:17.460
00:18:17.461 --> 00:18:19.529
00:18:19.530 --> 00:18:22.859
00:18:22.980 --> 00:18:25.829
00:18:26.220 --> 00:18:26.549
00:18:27.349 --> 00:18:28.339
00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:32.480
00:18:32.181 --> 00:18:37.460
00:18:37.759 --> 00:18:51.650
00:18:52.069 --> 00:18:57.829
00:18:57.830 --> 00:19:06.859
00:19:07.190 --> 00:19:13.910
00:19:13.911 --> 00:19:22.190
00:19:22.789 --> 00:19:27.829
00:19:28.369 --> 00:19:33.829
00:19:34.279 --> 00:19:47.180
00:19:47.390 --> 00:19:54.950
00:19:55.279 --> 00:20:04.940
00:20:05.240 --> 00:20:06.410
00:20:06.500 --> 00:20:13.490
00:20:13.849 --> 00:20:18.710
00:20:19.369 --> 00:20:28.160
00:20:28.161 --> 00:20:32.900
00:20:32.930 --> 00:20:37.609
00:20:37.611 --> 00:20:44.269
00:20:45.109 --> 00:21:14.859
00:21:15.400 --> 00:21:27.549
00:21:28.569 --> 00:21:46.029
00:21:46.630 --> 00:22:07.269
00:22:07.390 --> 00:22:08.470
00:22:08.471 --> 00:22:11.289
00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:13.089
00:22:13.090 --> 00:22:16.240
00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:31.930
00:22:32.049 --> 00:22:34.509
00:22:35.380 --> 00:22:58.690
00:22:58.779 --> 00:23:32.019
00:23:32.049 --> 00:23:58.220
00:23:59.180 --> 00:24:12.829
00:24:12.830 --> 00:24:25.579
00:24:25.580 --> 00:24:29.779
00:24:30.549 --> 00:24:35.079
00:24:35.259 --> 00:24:43.539
00:24:43.569 --> 00:24:53.710
00:24:53.711 --> 00:25:03.849
00:25:03.851 --> 00:25:06.910
00:25:06.911 --> 00:25:22.029
00:25:22.509 --> 00:25:29.109
00:25:29.589 --> 00:25:32.230
00:25:32.380 --> 00:25:49.990
00:25:50.799 --> 00:25:51.789
00:25:52.380 --> 00:25:59.859
00:26:00.940 --> 00:26:22.509
00:26:22.509 --> 00:26:42.579
00:26:43.289 --> 00:26:57.150
00:26:57.210 --> 00:27:04.170
00:27:05.809 --> 00:27:08.509
00:27:08.510 --> 00:27:28.490
00:27:28.490 --> 00:27:36.619
00:27:37.700 --> 00:27:41.119
00:27:41.121 --> 00:27:47.809
00:27:48.019 --> 00:27:49.220
00:27:49.221 --> 00:27:56.329
00:27:56.330 --> 00:27:57.740
00:27:59.390 --> 00:27:59.869
00:27:59.871 --> 00:28:08.299
00:28:08.630 --> 00:28:09.619
00:28:10.279 --> 00:28:30.500
00:28:31.549 --> 00:28:44.359
00:28:45.049 --> 00:28:49.369
00:28:49.400 --> 00:28:54.589
00:28:55.009 --> 00:29:07.099
00:29:07.789 --> 00:29:20.750
00:29:21.319 --> 00:29:27.859
00:29:28.069 --> 00:29:32.690
00:29:34.059 --> 00:29:41.680
00:29:44.900 --> 00:29:54.039
00:29:54.309 --> 00:30:01.630
00:30:01.660 --> 00:30:06.579
00:30:07.059 --> 00:30:11.380
00:30:11.859 --> 00:30:17.859
00:30:17.920 --> 00:30:19.750
00:30:19.839 --> 00:30:29.019
00:30:29.380 --> 00:30:39.670
00:30:39.671 --> 00:30:43.539
00:30:43.900 --> 00:30:47.349
00:30:47.680 --> 00:30:48.009
00:30:48.880 --> 00:30:49.779
00:30:50.200 --> 00:30:50.920
00:30:52.150 --> 00:30:54.970
00:30:55.000 --> 00:31:08.589
00:31:09.430 --> 00:31:11.470
00:31:11.471 --> 00:31:31.269
00:31:31.270 --> 00:31:35.289
00:31:35.619 --> 00:31:46.630
00:31:47.140 --> 00:31:59.799
00:32:00.289 --> 00:32:14.960
00:32:15.559 --> 00:32:21.650
00:32:22.099 --> 00:32:31.339
00:32:32.029 --> 00:32:38.509
00:32:38.990 --> 00:32:44.539
00:32:45.049 --> 00:32:53.720
00:32:54.349 --> 00:32:58.339
00:32:58.819 --> 00:33:10.579
00:33:10.579 --> 00:33:15.019
00:33:15.020 --> 00:33:23.059
00:33:23.060 --> 00:33:24.890
00:33:24.920 --> 00:33:27.289
00:33:27.710 --> 00:33:32.779
00:33:33.079 --> 00:33:35.660
00:33:35.661 --> 00:33:43.519
00:33:44.180 --> 00:33:45.559
00:33:45.650 --> 00:34:03.289
00:34:03.290 --> 00:34:05.450
00:34:05.809 --> 00:34:08.989
00:34:09.619 --> 00:34:21.199
00:34:21.320 --> 00:34:27.199
00:34:27.889 --> 00:34:34.730
00:34:35.360 --> 00:34:46.969