250 | Prophetic People | Zac Harmon-McLaughlin

Show Notes
Transcript

How will being a prophetic people sustain Community of Christ into the future? We have already seen the prophetic impulse in action in our denomination, but how do we then turn around and bring that impulse into the world?

Host: Carla Long
Guest: Zac Harmon-McLaughlin

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Intro and Outro music used with permission:

“For Everyone Born,” Community of Christ Sings #285. Music © 2006 Brian Mann, admin. General Board of Global Ministries t/a GBGMusik, 458 Ponce de Leon Avenue, Atlanta, GA 30308. copyright@umcmission.org

All music for this episode was performed by Dr. Jan Kraybill, and produced by Chad Godfrey.

NOTE: The series that make up the Project Zion Podcast explore the unique spiritual and theological gifts Community of Christ offers for today's world. Although Project Zion Podcast is a Ministry of Community of Christ. The views and opinions expressed in this episode are those speaking and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Community of Christ.

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[inaudible].

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Welcome to the Project Zion Podcast.

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This podcast explores the unique spiritual and theological gifts Community of Christ offers for today's world.

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[inaudible]

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Hello and welcome to the Project Zion podcast.

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I'm your host Carla Long, and if you thought this podcast was all about prophetic people did, I should have you on the podcast because you're a prophetic.

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This is our prophetic people series where we talk about what the term prophetic people means to different people in church.

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And tonight I have one of my favorites on, his name is Zac Harmon McLaughlin and Zac, I hate to tell them how long we've known each other, but it's been a really, really long time.

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It was probably December, like I don't know, 20 years ago.

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No, not that long ago.

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I'm not that old.

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15 years ago?

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That's probably more accurate.

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Yeah.

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Oh my goodness.

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Well, welcome to the podcast, Zac.

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Thanks so much for being here.

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Awesome.

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Do I introduce myself now?

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So tell us a little bit about yourself.

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Uh, so my name is Zac Harmon McLaughlin, as you stated.

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I currently am the director of the Community Christ Seminary at Graceland University.

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I just recently finished up my doctoral studies at San Francisco Theological Seminary and it's part of the Graduate Theological Union out in the Bay Area before coming to work for Graceland, I've worked with Community of Christ and various roles over the last decade, uh, the last of which was as a Mission Center President in Northern California and Western Nevada.

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So that's who I am.

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Ah, thanks Zac.

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Yeah, so Director of the Seminary.

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That sounds like a lot of fun.

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Actually

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It can be.

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And if anyone's listening to this, you should totally come to the seminary.

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Uh, I like to remind people that everything is theological.

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So whether you are a small business owner, an educator, if you work in health care, you in theology.

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And so one of the things that we do in the Community of Christ seminary that can be really helpful is that we give people a tools, training and resources to really engage with people in a meaningful way along their journey of faith and spirituality.

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And you know, I think it's really important for people to participate in that and engage in that.

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Uh, and most importantly, we care about justice.

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And so a lot of the, the violence, violence and oppression and marginalization in the world comes from, uh, narratives and stories about faith that, that are irresponsible and inappropriate.

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Uh, and in the Community of Christ seminary, we, we teach responsible, and appropriate interpretation of scripture so that we can go out, create a welcoming and inclusive world of belonging, uh, that proclaims the worth of all people and ultimately leads us towards a peaceful kingdom.

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So if you're thinking about it, you should come.

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Yeah.

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And also it kind of sounded like you said, we teach inappropriate ways to use the Bible, but you probably said appropriate rather.

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I hope I said appropriate, although no, definitely, definitely appropriate.

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Slightly inappropriate at times.

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Um, so as you can tell, gentle listener, um, Zac is really passionate about what he does.

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And so one of the reasons I wanted to have him on this podcast about prophetic people was a friend of mine said, Hey, you do a series on Project Zion about prophetic people will Zac Mac is on Facebook right now writing about just that.

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And I said, well, I have to have him on.

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So Zac, let's jump into it.

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What does the word prophetic mean to you and what is your understanding of this term and Community of Christ?

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Yeah, so I mean, I think the term prophetic, right?

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It carries a lot of connotation in our society.

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And so I think you know, most common when when people hear the word prophet, so not just prophetic, but profit in particular.

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I think people often kind of have this image of like a dictator in a community that just, you know, does whatever that prophet or dictator says, um, without any question or dialogue or debate.

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And so in Community of Christ is as a prophetic people, um, and being prophetic to me what that means is that we have a willingness to not know.

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And what I mean by that is to be prophetic is, is to listen to God.

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It is our ability to discern, to listen, and then articulate and interpret God's invitation to us to participate in God's preferred, preferred future.

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And so a prophetic in commune of Christ to me is really an invitation into ambiguity and to mystery into liminality.

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And basically what I mean by that is if you explore scripture and you go through the Old Testament or the Hebrew Bible in the New Testament and you begin to look at all the prophetic voices, you'll begin to notice something that you cannot be a prophet and already know the will of God or what God is up to.

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What makes you a prophet is that you have a willingness to not know.

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And my favorite example of that is Moses in Exodus three you know, he sees the burning Bush, he runs up to the burning Bush.

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God says, Moses, Moses, take off your your shoes, right?

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He takes off his shoes.

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And of course he says, here I am Lord.

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Then so after, after Moses has had a willingness to notice God and be Reverend and attentive to God's presence in Moses's life, he says, here I here, here, here I am, God.

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Then God begins to invite Moses into this task.

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You need to go to Egypt.

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You need to free my people.

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At which point Moses begins to have questions.

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He's like, wait a minute, do you know who you're talking to?

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Like this is impossible.

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Are you sure?

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I don't know.

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And so, so Moses literally begins to engage in doubt and wonder and ambiguity and mystery.

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And so to be prophetic Community of Christ, it's our ability to show up to the presence of God and be willing to listen, to pay attention to what God is inviting us to.

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Knowing that, you know, our job is not to, to have clarity and certainty about every fact of what may or may not happen in the future.

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Our priority is rather to listen, to discern, to be prayerful and thoughtful, and then engage with God as we work toward God toward God's preferred future.

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And so for me, the term prophetic is really invitational.

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It's exciting because it's a, it essentially tells every single person right off the bat, you matter.

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God, God has something for you.

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God is inviting you to something, God is speaking to you and God becomes both this intimate and communal thing simultaneously.

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So that's a I, I mean, I could kind of ramble about this for a long time, but I think in general, the word prophetic is an invitation to the whole community in the community of Christ to slow down, to listen, to wrestle with doubt and wonder and mystery, and then begin to engage in the hard, complex task of cultivating the peaceable kingdom.

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Whoa.

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Prophetic means a lot to you.

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It does.

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That's big.

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That's big.

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So I'm almost scared to ask, how has this understanding of prophetic and, or prophetic people evolved over your lifetime?

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Oh, the church.

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Yeah.

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So for sure, like a lot, right?

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I mean, I think that's the point of being a prophetic people is that it's, it's consistently moving.

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One of my favorite things about the commune of crisis, how we articulate ourselves as a movement.

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We're naturally fluid people.

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We're not stuck in rigidity.

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We're excited to proclaim that we're non creedal, right?

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That you don't have to make a statement of belief or proclamation of faith to be a part of this community.

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So being a prophetic people is a naturally evolving, moving thing.

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So in my lifetime, you know, I think when I was a child early on, prophetic people was a much more authoritarian idea, right?

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That there's a prophet, the prophet has a revelation and then we do our best to participate or follow that revelation, engaging in whatever, right?

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The older I've gotten, the more that authoritarian lens has drifted away.

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And it's become, as I said earlier, kind of this invitational framework where to be a prophetic people is that while yes, the Community of Christ has a prophet, um, that's very different than saying we have a dictator.

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You know, I think our, our prophet is the one who begins to facilitate that mystery and that period of discernment with the community.

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And as a theocratic democracy, you know, we have the opportunity to wrestle with that to just like Moses did or, or even in, since we're in advent, you know, just like Mary did when, when the angel shows up and is like, Mary, you're pregnant.

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She's like, no, not me.

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You've got the wrong person.

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Right?

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And so the idea of being a prophetic people.

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Now as I'm older and the more and more I, I study about our identity as Christians and as disciples, the more and more being a prophetic people is, is an authentic invitation for community to really begin to slow down and understand who it is we are being called to be so that we can participate with God in the world to create transformation, to create what we may refer to in Christianity as a, Oh, what is the word?

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It's on the tip of my tongue, resurrection in the world.

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So, you know, it changes a lot, but it's an exciting thing.

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It's an exciting idea to be part of a movement that articulates this idea that we aren't just a group with a prophet.

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Rather each one of us has prophetic insight.

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Um, each one of us has prophetic wisdom.

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Each one of us has prophetic capacity to engage with God, interpret God, listen to God and respond to God.

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And the last thing I'll say, and then we can move on, and then I apologize to all the listeners.

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I'm a 70 and I, you know, I tend to just kinda get a little preachy so I apologize for that.

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But the last thing I'll say about it, the other piece that has kind of evolved for me, so as a 70 in the Community of Christ, I've always kind of been naturally a kingdom builder, right?

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I've always been, had my gears focused on what are we going to do?

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How are we going to do it?

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The, the more and more I engage with my interior life as well as my discipleship and identity in Christ, the more I realized that to be a prophetic people is to constantly bring ourselves back to the why question and, and, and the why always happens before the what and the how.

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And what I mean by that is, uh, to be prophetic means that we have to always be listening to and articulating why is it that we gather in community?

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Why are we proclaiming Jesus Christ?

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Who are we, who are we being called to be?

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And, and as we begin to discern that and focus on that, then we can begin.

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Once we have a sense of clarity on that, then we can begin to say this is what that looks like, this is how we do that.

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But the prophetic side gives us focus.

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It gives us this laser focus to really hone in and say, okay, to be a prophetic people means this and this is who we are.

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This is what we're about and this is how we engage the world in that way.

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I'm going to go back to something that you said.

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Um, cause it really surprised me actually when you talked about a 70 and you especially Zac Mac talked about slowing down.

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I do feel like in Community of Christ in the last however many years, maybe two decades, we have had this really intention on slowing down.

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Like when president VZ was chosen as the next prophet president of the church, we took six months to do that and we were willing to be vulnerable and willing to let God be a part of that rather than human being saying this is it.

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This is the only thing there is.

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And so I, I'm really intrigued by this idea that to be a prophetic people we have to slow down.

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Can you talk a little bit more about that?

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Yeah, I can probably talk too much about this.

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So I think this is actually a really important point and so I'm glad you kind of grabbed onto it.

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And so, so in the United States really since about 1988 but, but kinda of, uh, sped up aggressively since 2000, we've seen a shift in Christianity, right?

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And, um, so in 2012, for the first time in the United States history, the majority of the country were no longer Protestant Christians.

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Uh, we dropped to 48%.

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That was the first time in the history of this country that there wasn't a clear majority of Protestant Christians in the United States.

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So as Christianity changes as, as peoples yearning for spiritual community, sacred community shifts, this is a really important piece because we talk a lot, uh, you know, I've talked a lot with pastors, various leaders throughout the church about how are we going to fix the church?

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How are we going to grow the church again, right?

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Like how are we going to address all these really complex major problems?

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And the more and more I've studied this context and the demographics and all this stuff, the more and more I've been led to this reality of, you know what our job is right now.

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It is not to do more.

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It's to slow down.

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In fact, do less.

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Like the job of a prophetic people isn't to create the most shiny new thing in the spiritual world.

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The, the newest product to be consumed, the newest thing to be done, the most attractive worship, the most authentic thing we can do as a prophetic body is stop and listen to God.

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And so if we're really, really honest with ourselves, if we find ourselves in a place where we feel like our congregation or our sacred community is beginning to fall apart or even die, I think that the natural kind of reaction is, all right, let's circle the wagons.

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Let's get the best brains in here and let's fix it.

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Let's find the solution and X, Y, Z.

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We're going to fix the problem.

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The response from the prophet is not not this, Hurry up and go idea.

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The response from a prophet is we must not be listening to God.

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We must have missed the invitation.

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And and what's ironic is in the church we always try to do the fixing and how often do we slow down and say, wait a minute, this isn't ours to fix.

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We are ambassadors of God.

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We are the hands and feet of Jesus.

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Our job as disciples is not to think we have all the answers that we know how to, how to make this work.

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The prophet steps back in prayer and discernment, and even Jesus does this, right?

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Like even when things are falling apart, Jesus retreats and spiritual practice and discernment and prayer.

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And so I think now of all times as Christianity in the United States shifts, our job is not to come up with a new shiny program or formula or model and say, okay, we found the magic bullet.

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If you do this, this is going to work.

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This is going to attract that demographic of 18 to 35 year olds.

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You're going to get young families getting blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

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In all my research for my dissertation and for other things, you know what I found?

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People don't want something new.

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They in fact, they want something very ancient.

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They want an Acts II experience.

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They want authentic, intentional, vulnerable community.

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And that most often happens in communities that slow down and discernment.

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Now, please don't misunderstand me.

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I'm not saying don't do things.

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I'm not saying don't engage, uh, in justice and peace in the world.

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What I am saying is if, if we're simply running programs to run programs and we haven't slowed down to focus on our why or engage in that prophetic voice of God, what are you inviting us to it?

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Does it matter how many years we've done the Turkey dinner or, or the backpack program?

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If those things aren't directly connected to our prophetic response to God's invitation, we have to stop and say, why are we doing this?

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How has God called us into this?

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And so I actually, you know, lately have been inviting congregations to stop, stop burning yourselves out, stop running yourselves ragged to try to attract or create something that may or may not exist.

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Rather, let's retreat in prayer.

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God, what are you up to in our lives?

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What are you up to in our neighborhood and our community?

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What are you inviting us into and what does that look like?

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That's what a prophetic community does.

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A prophetic community, you know, slows down long enough to notice the burning bush.

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You know what happens if we don't notice the burning bush?

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We just keep on pushing the sheep up the same mountain that we've been on a hundred times before.

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The only way things begin to change is when we slow down long enough for encounter to happen in the midst of our prophetic identity.

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And this is true for us.

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Like I don't know why we wrestled with this because this is true.

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Most of the great ideas in our congregations come from someone's testimony or encounter with God through discernment, right?

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It's people who have had these moments in prayer where they're like, we need to engage with our neighborhood and provide food and clothing to our neighbors because this is what God is up to.

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And next thing you know that the congregation has a food pantry and a closed thing bank, right?

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And so, you know, the job is not to be mindless doers for the kingdom.

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The job is to understand our context, to slow down and listen to God's invitation and then participate with God.

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That's a significant difference perhaps than in the past.

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And so, uh, that's kinda what I meant by that and how I still, I, I'm really passionate about, I don't want us to just simply do things for the sake of doing them.

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I really want us to pay attention and do things with intention, with purpose, and with focus so that we can sustainably transform the world and begin the work of Zion, begin cultivating tangibly the peaceable kingdom of God.

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So I could probably go on and on about that for some time, but that's probably a safe place to stop.

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Well, that, I mean, that sounds amazing.

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And so how do we develop that prophetic courage to do that?

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How do we develop that to, to slow down that the, the trust, I guess to slow down.

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Yeah.

00:21:46.859 --> 00:21:47.130
Yeah.

00:21:47.339 --> 00:21:49.170
Cause we're so afraid of death, right?

00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:58.680
Like what happens if, if we slow down, you know, are people going to go to the church next door or are they, you know, and we're a Do'er culture, right?

00:21:58.681 --> 00:22:03.000
Like you're not successful unless you have 1500 meetings every day.

00:22:03.210 --> 00:22:03.569
Right?

00:22:03.599 --> 00:22:09.990
Like success in our culture is very much based on doing and all that spiritual stuff.

00:22:09.990 --> 00:22:18.150
All that being stuff that's mystical and not really, it doesn't, doesn't have the same meaning, which, which is really, it's silliness.

00:22:18.151 --> 00:22:25.440
And so I think the place it starts is just with us beginning to understand who we are.

00:22:26.220 --> 00:22:27.839
Uh, it, it really is a vision.

00:22:27.840 --> 00:22:34.410
There's a, I forget which Psalm it is exactly that Psalm that says where there is no vision, my people perish.

00:22:35.400 --> 00:22:44.220
I think that Psalm invites us into a reality to say it's okay to evaluate and, and look at who we are.

00:22:44.460 --> 00:22:49.859
We don't have to simply keep doing the same things just to do them, uh, for the sake of doing them.

00:22:50.369 --> 00:22:53.759
I mean, it makes it, it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

00:22:53.760 --> 00:23:02.670
And so, so I think slowing down really starts with an intentional place of asking ourselves, who are we?

00:23:02.671 --> 00:23:04.380
Who has got inviting us to be?

00:23:04.740 --> 00:23:05.759
And then engaging in that.

00:23:05.799 --> 00:23:09.029
And this is authentic to our Christian story, right?

00:23:09.030 --> 00:23:15.089
So one of the things that Christian churches hate is the idea of death.

00:23:15.630 --> 00:23:17.730
What happens if this program dies?

00:23:18.029 --> 00:23:19.319
Then we failed.

00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:26.970
Uh, and we, we rest in that failure as, as if that is like the biggest blow in the biggest negative in the world for our congregations.

00:23:27.299 --> 00:23:34.410
Here's the problem, Carla, we're disciples of Jesus and we know that death is not the end of things.

00:23:34.829 --> 00:23:41.670
We know that when death happens, what happens right after death, resurrection new life.

00:23:42.150 --> 00:23:47.180
So we know the Christian story is life, death, life, death, resurrection.

00:23:48.920 --> 00:23:53.230
Being a prophetic people engaging in discernment is our willingness.

00:23:53.359 --> 00:24:15.049
It this is that prophetic courage to say, if this thing dies, if this Turkey dinner dies, if we slow down and let it die, a graceful, dignified, meaningful death, rejoicing for the saints that have poured their heart and soul into this incredible thing that has blessed hundreds or thousands of people.

00:24:15.980 --> 00:24:22.640
If we let it die prophetically, how will God raise it up again?

00:24:23.420 --> 00:24:43.609
How will God resurrect this congregation, this community, this collection of saints so that we can go out in the world and continue the hard disparate work of creating transformative kingdoms of God in the world here in now.

00:24:43.611 --> 00:24:47.269
And so that's part of where that courage comes from.

00:24:47.270 --> 00:24:47.450
It.

00:24:47.490 --> 00:24:59.480
It takes an incredible amount of courage for the disciples to stand in front of the cross and watch Jesus die and think everything we've known, everything we've put our heart in is gone.

00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:00.920
And they weep.

00:25:01.160 --> 00:25:03.349
And it's sad and it's hard.

00:25:04.400 --> 00:25:10.460
And as they walk down the road, away from the cross, Jesus shows up and says, what are you doing?

00:25:11.029 --> 00:25:12.319
Do not be afraid.

00:25:12.589 --> 00:25:13.609
Here I am.

00:25:13.940 --> 00:25:18.230
And they sprint back to tell the others what they've experienced, right?

00:25:18.230 --> 00:25:20.150
And their whole world changes.

00:25:20.630 --> 00:25:21.890
And so this is hard.

00:25:21.891 --> 00:25:24.380
It's scary, it's uncertain.

00:25:24.440 --> 00:25:25.549
It's a mystery.

00:25:26.059 --> 00:25:29.809
But like I said earlier, that's how we know we're being prophetic.

00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:31.220
We don't know.

00:25:31.579 --> 00:25:44.029
We live in that ambiguity and that mystery and we trust and faith that we're participating with God in God's cultivation and creation of God's preferred future.

00:25:44.030 --> 00:25:48.710
So all of those things are what kind of give us courage.

00:25:48.910 --> 00:25:55.400
And, and the last kind of comment I'll make is this the most common phrase in all of scripture.

00:25:55.430 --> 00:26:06.230
Hebrew Bible, New Testament over 296 times God or Jesus say, do not be afraid.

00:26:06.559 --> 00:26:10.460
And more often than not, that's followed with for I am with you.

00:26:11.900 --> 00:26:18.950
So, so this repetitive idea, do not be afraid or fear not, um, often followed with for I am with you, right?

00:26:20.119 --> 00:26:26.089
This idea is almost as if Jesus is trying to remind the disciples, listen, I know this is scary.

00:26:26.090 --> 00:26:27.230
I know this is hard.

00:26:27.410 --> 00:26:30.259
I know you have doubts and you think I'm crazy.

00:26:31.220 --> 00:26:33.440
Do not be afraid.

00:26:34.250 --> 00:26:40.339
My peace I give you, everything's going to be okay through prayer and Thanksgiving, right?

00:26:40.340 --> 00:26:42.049
These are all scriptural ideas.

00:26:42.430 --> 00:26:44.369
They're there in the Doctrine and Covenants are in scripture.

00:26:44.549 --> 00:26:53.430
We find them all over the place, but yet we still have this deep seated desire to be in control, to be able to, to, to fix things and have certainty with things.

00:26:53.431 --> 00:26:55.769
And so that's where that courage comes from.

00:26:55.829 --> 00:27:03.180
Our willingness to step back, to slow down, to let certain things fail so that other things can succeed too.

00:27:03.750 --> 00:27:18.029
To stop trying to create new wheels and, and slow down long enough to let God actually do what God does in community to, to let the spirit breathe and participate with that.

00:27:18.930 --> 00:27:23.069
You know, and, and there is, there is no right or wrong way here, right?

00:27:23.070 --> 00:27:30.750
Like it's all driven by the context of our local communities and how, how we engage with one another.

00:27:30.750 --> 00:27:33.450
And so what works in one place won't work in another place.

00:27:33.451 --> 00:27:36.509
There is no one size fits all approach to this.

00:27:37.170 --> 00:27:45.690
It's our, you know, our context and our neighborhood and, and how we begin to participate with God and God's invitation to us.

00:27:48.420 --> 00:27:49.079
Wow.

00:27:49.410 --> 00:27:51.809
That's, that's a lot to unpack Zac.

00:27:52.049 --> 00:27:52.470
Sorry.

00:27:53.009 --> 00:27:54.029
No, no, it's so good.

00:27:54.450 --> 00:28:07.109
Um, I, I mean I think like if I wanted to take out like some practical, a little parts of what you said, there's, there's one thing you said that has really stood out to me that's let go of your need of control.

00:28:07.349 --> 00:28:13.829
And that is, I think that that has also been a message from God for a long, long time.

00:28:14.099 --> 00:28:16.559
Let go of your need to know what's going to happen.

00:28:16.740 --> 00:28:28.589
Let go of your need to be right, let go of your need to make sure that everything is just exactly the way you like it because that's because all you're going to get is the same stuff that you've been getting.

00:28:28.590 --> 00:28:30.720
You're not going to get anything else.

00:28:31.170 --> 00:28:36.420
So that letting go of control seems like a a pretty big deal.

00:28:37.410 --> 00:28:37.700
Yeah, so

00:28:37.700 --> 00:28:44.329
I, I'll just say this, right, like I have three degrees now in religion and you know what?

00:28:44.330 --> 00:28:50.599
I know the only thing I know with with any amount of certainty, I am not God.

00:28:51.710 --> 00:28:52.730
I'm a part of God.

00:28:53.119 --> 00:28:54.589
I participate with God.

00:28:55.190 --> 00:29:08.089
God is a part of me, but I am not God and I can't tell you like how many times as a mission center president or even as director of the seminary, God is nudging me to do something and I'm like, God, I don't have time for that.

00:29:08.090 --> 00:29:10.250
I'm too busy running the church.

00:29:10.250 --> 00:29:13.700
I'm too busy doing this church work, and then I hit.

00:29:13.730 --> 00:29:14.349
Then I stepped back.

00:29:14.380 --> 00:29:16.130
I'm like, Oh man, I missed it.

00:29:16.609 --> 00:29:31.279
I'm like, Oh wait, ah, God was inviting me to something and I was too busy thinking that this church thing was all about me, my agenda in what I bring to the table when in reality I am a vessel for God in the world.

00:29:31.519 --> 00:29:37.519
And so another kind of practical piece I guess, uh, was an experience I had as a pastor.

00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:52.210
I, you know, as a pastor in this congregation that had resources and, and we had a pretty large facility and like many congregations, we spent a lot of money on that facility to, to keep it open and to keep it running.

00:29:52.660 --> 00:29:54.819
And this kind of at some point got frustrating, right?

00:29:54.820 --> 00:29:57.430
Like we're spending so much money on this, this building.

00:29:57.730 --> 00:30:10.150
And so we kind of changed the conversation to say, listen, we will spend money on any project we need to, if we can answer this question, what does this have to do with the mission of Jesus Christ?

00:30:11.170 --> 00:30:13.329
And if we can't answer that, then we won't do it.

00:30:13.690 --> 00:30:20.769
You know, which caused concern like, well Zac, I don't know how plumbing has to do what that has to do with the mission of Jesus Christ, but we need to fix the plumbing.

00:30:20.769 --> 00:30:26.259
It's like it doesn't matter if we can't articulate how that's connected the mission of Jesus Christ, we're not going to do it.

00:30:26.680 --> 00:30:28.450
Well, the building needed painting, right?

00:30:28.480 --> 00:30:31.839
And, and it was going to be something like, I don't know, 20$30,000.

00:30:31.840 --> 00:30:37.599
It was really expensive because it was a large facility and everybody knew the building needed painted.

00:30:37.900 --> 00:30:43.750
But the question was, we will do this if we can answer the question, what does this have to do with the mission of Jesus Christ?

00:30:43.960 --> 00:30:46.089
If we can't answer that question, we won't do it.

00:30:46.779 --> 00:30:49.299
And so we had a lot of debate about it, a lot of frustration.

00:30:49.300 --> 00:30:50.200
Like this is silly.

00:30:50.201 --> 00:30:51.309
We just need to paint the building.

00:30:51.310 --> 00:30:52.839
Everybody knows we need to paint the building.

00:30:53.170 --> 00:30:57.309
The building hasn't been painted in 20 some years, you know, obviously blah blah blah.

00:30:57.310 --> 00:31:05.559
And it's like, if this is just a building and, and we're just painting it for the sake of painting it, what's the point?

00:31:06.309 --> 00:31:10.329
So finally somebody finally said, I think I can add to this.

00:31:10.990 --> 00:31:13.210
Our building is a symbol to our community.

00:31:13.420 --> 00:31:25.390
If we paint the building, uh, make it look fresh and clean, um, that will symbolize to our community that this was a safe place where they're welcomed to where they belong, that they can come and find sanctuary.

00:31:25.779 --> 00:31:38.470
And so by painting the building, we're engaging with the mission of Jesus Christ by making sure that people see this place, uh, as an invitation to peace, as an invitation to community.

00:31:38.920 --> 00:31:42.640
And so that's how this is connected to the mission of Jesus Christ.

00:31:43.059 --> 00:31:45.309
And it was like, yes, boom, let's sign the check.

00:31:45.310 --> 00:31:46.119
Let's do it.

00:31:46.690 --> 00:31:48.490
That changes the lens.

00:31:48.490 --> 00:31:50.859
That changes the way in which we think about this stuff.

00:31:50.861 --> 00:32:01.839
So rather than just painting the building and paint the building, all of a sudden the building became a missional asset, a missional tool to say, this isn't just a building.

00:32:02.140 --> 00:32:04.539
This is a place where community gathers to be safe.

00:32:04.809 --> 00:32:09.279
To find belonging to experience peace and transformation.

00:32:09.430 --> 00:32:10.960
That's why we paint the building.

00:32:11.589 --> 00:32:16.779
Um, and so that's kind of a anecdotal, practical thing of this is that's kind of what this looks like.

00:32:17.049 --> 00:32:21.339
Stepping back to say, ah, we're, we're not just going to do status quo anymore.

00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:31.150
Um, status quo in the world has gotten us Wars, marginalization, oppression, uh, us, them narratives that create, you know, polarization.

00:32:31.750 --> 00:32:44.180
What we need now is to slow down and participate in God's invitation, uh, in the church so that we can radically and innovatively change the world.

00:32:46.789 --> 00:32:47.359
Awesome.

00:32:47.819 --> 00:32:48.359
Awesome.

00:32:48.450 --> 00:32:50.730
Oh, is that, this is such an exciting conversation.

00:32:50.730 --> 00:32:55.109
I'm really enjoying what you have to say and I find it really exciting.

00:32:55.230 --> 00:33:09.029
So like my, I don't know if we're heading this direction and you can tell me if you don't think we are, but one of my usual questions for people in this prophetic people series is for you, what was the prophetic in?

00:33:09.210 --> 00:33:25.769
And then I have this whole list of the concept of Zion, ordination of women, lenses of discernment, the LGBTQ plus diversity and leadership attention to the poor international diversity and going across borders for a ministry, nonviolence process of common consent or signal communities.

00:33:26.339 --> 00:33:31.019
Would you want to talk about how you see prophetic in one or two of those things?

00:33:31.589 --> 00:33:34.589
I want to talk about to be prophetic in all of those things.

00:33:35.730 --> 00:33:39.329
I know, I know you do, but I'm going to, I'm going to have to go to bed at some point.

00:33:39.690 --> 00:33:40.019
Nope.

00:33:40.049 --> 00:33:40.380
Nope.

00:33:40.890 --> 00:33:44.039
This is going to be a four hour Project Zion, everyone.

00:33:44.759 --> 00:33:46.890
Everyone needs to get comfortable apparently.

00:33:51.160 --> 00:33:51.970
Okay.

00:33:51.160 --> 00:34:01.269
So I will start though by saying everything is prophetic when it's done in partnership with God, which is what makes these topics so captivating and meaningful, right?

00:34:01.720 --> 00:34:13.539
Is that these are things that are unaccomplishable unless we work collaboratively and collectively as community with God.

00:34:14.230 --> 00:34:15.429
And so that's really important.

00:34:15.431 --> 00:34:24.070
And that's k ind o f like earlier when I said everything's theological, u m, I really mean that everything here is prophetic when it's done in partnership with God.

00:34:24.969 --> 00:34:36.849
So, I guess the one that really grabs me i s probably the LGBT LGBTQ plus, u h, issue or reality in the community of Christ.

00:34:36.851 --> 00:34:53.079
And, a nd the reason I say that is my wife, Katie and I were really blessed to play a role in the United States national conference in 2013, or the community of Christ addressed same sex ordination a nd same sex marriage.

00:34:53.500 --> 00:34:59.800
Our job at that conference was to, u h, be responsible for the moments of blessing.

00:35:00.489 --> 00:35:14.230
And, you know, as you recall, u m, I'm making an assumption there, but as I recall, you know, just the, u m, the weight of this issue on a diverse body, right?

00:35:14.230 --> 00:35:25.869
Because the Community of Christ, while we may have a progressive theology, we're a very diverse body in terms of thought, in terms of, uh, conservative and progressive.

00:35:25.920 --> 00:35:33.369
And we have, uh, that's one of the things that makes us so beautiful is that, you know, we have such a diverse community like that.

00:35:33.849 --> 00:35:45.070
And so going into that national conference, you know, you could just the weight of this issue, uh, in the sense of what is going to happen, how are we gonna do this?

00:35:45.639 --> 00:35:53.139
Uh, and so there's three kind of quick stories that I'd like to share about that and how those, that was a prophetic experience for me.

00:35:53.769 --> 00:35:56.440
And if this goes along, I really apologize, but I'll try to make it quick.

00:35:57.190 --> 00:36:07.960
So I remember showing up, uh, for that national conference and like I said, my wife and I played a role in that too, to a degree anyway.

00:36:07.960 --> 00:36:10.360
I mean, everybody kind of played a role in that conference.

00:36:10.989 --> 00:36:30.730
I remember being backstage before the conference started with the USA apostles and my wife and I made, you know, at the time I was somewhere in my twenties and I was a bit silly and goofy and I may be kind of off the hand flippant comment, like, we're gonna do this.

00:36:31.449 --> 00:36:33.489
And I was referring to the moments of blessing.

00:36:33.699 --> 00:36:37.570
Like, don't worry everybody, we got this, everything's good.

00:36:37.630 --> 00:36:37.809
Right?

00:36:37.811 --> 00:36:39.280
That whole control thing we talked about.

00:36:39.730 --> 00:36:41.889
And I'll never forget Linda Booth.

00:36:42.250 --> 00:36:52.750
Grabbing my hand and looking me in the eyes and the most humbling way ever and saying, no, Zac, God's going to do this.

00:36:54.730 --> 00:37:05.239
And having a moment like just being totally confronted with the reality of my arrogance and the presence of the spirit just like that.

00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:15.400
And in this moment of, you're right, this has nothing to do with us and our human capacities and abilities.

00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:25.780
This has everything with our ability to show up and be present with God in participate with God as we become who we're being called to be.

00:37:26.199 --> 00:37:35.679
And so that was like before the gavel had even swang before the conference that even started backstage and just being confronted by the power of the Spirit in that.

00:37:36.039 --> 00:37:39.070
The second part of that conference that was overwhelmingly prophetic.

00:37:39.340 --> 00:37:50.019
We, um, and you may or may not remember for those of you listening that were there, one of the moments of blessings that we did was we created a communion scene up on the stage.

00:37:50.409 --> 00:37:58.539
And so one by one people came up to the stage and one person brought a tablecloth, one person brought the bread, one person brought grapes right?

00:37:58.630 --> 00:38:06.250
There were four people participating and Katie and I had intentionally asked very diverse people, um, to participate in that.

00:38:06.250 --> 00:38:09.849
So there were people who were undecided on the issue.

00:38:10.420 --> 00:38:15.849
Um, there was one, one person named Charles who was at the time very against the issue.

00:38:16.449 --> 00:38:23.590
Uh, and then there, there was another person who was actually gay himself who was participating.

00:38:24.369 --> 00:38:28.360
And I'll never forget, we had told them when and where to meet the day.

00:38:28.360 --> 00:38:29.710
We knew we were going to do this.

00:38:29.980 --> 00:38:31.539
I invited them to sit down.

00:38:31.541 --> 00:38:37.329
And of course, the people who disagreed right instantly to argue.

00:38:37.389 --> 00:38:41.289
And it was, I'm right, here's why and know I'm right.

00:38:41.291 --> 00:38:41.710
Here's why.

00:38:41.710 --> 00:38:46.059
And there was this, it was loving, but it was very clear like, Hey, we disagree.

00:38:47.110 --> 00:38:59.170
Anyway, long story short, these men who disagreed ended up on stage together and, and what people may or may not know that this was largely unscripted.

00:38:59.170 --> 00:39:10.179
And the group that was up there stopped and they, they held hands and they began to pray and it was just a really beautiful moment.

00:39:10.510 --> 00:39:12.309
And then we ended with a blessing.

00:39:13.420 --> 00:39:14.920
It was right before lunchtime.

00:39:14.920 --> 00:39:19.539
And so I ran up on a stage to get all this stuff to tear it down so the conference could continue.

00:39:19.840 --> 00:39:33.460
And as I was up there, the two of them who you know, were just at each other's throats about their disagreements, I watched as they came over and embraced one another.

00:39:34.539 --> 00:39:42.219
And Charles looked into the eyes of this gay man and said, I love you.

00:39:43.989 --> 00:39:48.699
And in response he heard, I love you too.

00:39:49.780 --> 00:40:08.320
And it was just this powerful moment of even in the midst of this polarized diversity of opinion, we somehow are unified and our sense of calling to be the hands and feet of Jesus Christ in the world.

00:40:08.679 --> 00:40:16.869
And then the last piece that made that experience, so prophetic for me was the very last day of the conference when we took the final vote.

00:40:16.929 --> 00:40:47.619
And you know, ultimately we, we voted in approval of both same sex ordination and marriage in the United States and you know, rather than shoes and hollers and excitement, it was this humbling moment where joy and sorrow kind of held hands cause we knew that some people were really upset and devastated in the room and we knew that other people were so excited and joyful in the room and everyone kind of had a reference for one another.

00:40:48.190 --> 00:40:51.489
But then the most amazing thing happened after that.

00:40:52.179 --> 00:40:55.570
And I just happened to have the privilege of being on the stage.

00:40:56.320 --> 00:40:57.309
We began to sing.

00:40:57.311 --> 00:41:04.309
We are one in the spirit and what people may or may not have known about that moment is we began to sing there.

00:41:04.480 --> 00:41:12.400
There must have been a thousand people up in the balcony who were actually delegates of the conference as we were seeing, we are one in the spirit.

00:41:13.059 --> 00:41:29.019