Episode 210: Fair Trade with Kris Black

Show Notes
Transcript

Our Fair Trade series is all about faith transitions and today we are featuring Kris Black! Join us as we talk with Kris about her journey with religion, God, and her ultimate decision to join Community of Christ. Growing up in the LDS church, Kris has always been a spiritual seeker. Her walk with God has taken her to some surprising places, as most recently being ordained an elder in Community of Christ.

You can find Kris' book here: A Sociology of Mormon Kinship: The Place of Family Within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

For more information about Theo Thursday, visit this link: https://www.theothursday.com

Thanks for listening to Project Zion Podcast!
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Intro and Outro music used with permission:

“For Everyone Born,” Community of Christ Sings #285. Music © 2006 Brian Mann, admin. General Board of Global Ministries t/a GBGMusik, 458 Ponce de Leon Avenue, Atlanta, GA 30308. copyright@umcmission.org

All music for this episode was performed by Dr. Jan Kraybill, and produced by Chad Godfrey.

NOTE: The series that make up the Project Zion Podcast explore the unique spiritual and theological gifts Community of Christ offers for today's world. Although Project Zion Podcast is a Ministry of Community of Christ. The views and opinions expressed in this episode are those speaking and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Community of Christ.

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[inaudible].

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Welcome to the Project Zion podcast.

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This podcast explores the unique spiritual and theological gifts Community of Christ offers for today's world.

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Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Project Zion podcast.

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This is Brittany and I will be your host for today and we will be bringing you another episode in our Fair Trade series, which is all about faith that transitions and faith journey and experiences of face with members of Community of Christ.

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So today I'm going to be talking with Dr Kris Black who lives in Oakland, California and attends the Walnut Creek congregation.

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And I must say that Chris and I first met in 2014 possibly.

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Yeah.

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You know, I, it was even before 13, maybe?

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It was a little while ago, but a women's retreat in Salt Lake out of t he Salt Lake congregation.

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U m, and Kris was a sociology major and I just felt like, u m, you know, she had leaps and bounds of experience ahead of me where I wanted to be.

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It was like I was peering into my future meeting Kris.

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And so we just had such great conversations in that retreat and I've been silently s talking her on the Internet ever since.

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This was recently ordained an elder at the end of June in her congregation and she currently serves as a counselor to the pastor of the Walnut Creek congregation and s he's in conversation with the pastor and with her congregation as a possible transition into the role of pastor next year.

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So we w ill see where that takes her.

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But Kris, I'm really glad that you, you said yes to joining us on Project Zion.

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So welcome!

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Oh, thank you.

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I'm so glad you asked me.

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I've been secretly stalking you too.

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So you know, when I, when I met you Brittany, you were just so enthusiastic about everything.

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I think you were kind of in the middle of your faith transition journey as well.

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And yeah, we just connected on somebody levels and I felt like I'd found a soul sister.

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So I think I, you know, and maybe I'm speaking out of turn, but I just think that we both kind of really helped each other through all of the bumps and, and journeys, you know, bumps that come along in this journey of faith and, and it's been nice to, to know that you're there with me.

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So yeah, it has to be able to chat with you about this.

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Yeah, I feel the exact same way.

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And I think that in my, in my conversations with you, we see the world very similarly and I just felt like you brought such a wisdom to our conversations that was helpful and a good perspective.

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So I'm excited to get to know you a little bit better in this conversation.

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It'll be good.

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Thanks.

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So usually with our Fair Trade episodes, we kind of start at the beginning, wherever the beginning looks like for you.

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So I'm curious to know what faith and religion looks like for you when you were growing up and maybe into young adulthood and

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Oh sure.

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Yeah.

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What did that look like in your family life and personal life?

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Well, growing up in central Utah, Springville, little town, just south of Provo, it look very conservative.

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You know, I was born and raised as a Mormon.

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Um, so when I say born as a Mormon, um, ancestors on both sides were LDS.

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I had converts on my mother's side and my father's side were part of the pioneer group that came in and helped settle Utah specifically in the Blanding area.

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So long family history of Mormonism, um, polygamy, you know, in my great-grandfather.

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So I'm related to quite a bit, you know, pretty, pretty good chunk of southern Utah and, you know, just that whole kind of quintessential Mormon upbringing.

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So, yeah, go to church on Sundays, baptized, go to primary, u h, went through seminary as a young teen.

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U m, my family was really involved in the church on some l evels, but not orthodox on other levels.

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So it's kind of an odd mix of being, u m, g osh, I don't even know how to explain it.

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It was a, we didn't do the thing of observing the sabbath to the point of not going shopping or you know, like a lot of Utah County families did.

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U m, but we did go to church and we went camping a lot of Sundays rather than go to church as well.

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So, you know, w as this kind of interesting mix of Mormonism and, and n on-active type of lifestyle.

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U m, but I think in the end we were really, you know, pretty, pretty average, pretty average Mormon kid.

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One of the things that wasn't averaged though I started noticing about myself like, especially as a really young girl, instead of playing dress up as a bride, I would play, dress up as a nun.

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And so I had this really early attraction to religion.

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And I remember like one of my first boyfriends, u h, a nd eighth, seventh grade, you know, like, you know, really young, I can't really call him a boyfriend.

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You know, this kid that I had a crush on gave me my first Catholic metal patron saint metal.

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And I fell in love with them.

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And I mean, not him, but the metals, the saints.

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And started wearing crosses and um, you know, and like I was told that Mormon girls don't do that.

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And I wanted to go visit other churches and that really wasn't encouraged either.

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So it was this odd mix of feeling a pole in an area outside of Mormonism from a very early age.

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I tried my very best to conform to Mormonism and part of me could just never quite go there.

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So I spent the biggest part of the first 30 years of my life trying to be the, the good Mormon girl.

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Ultimately I failed and officially left the church, um, around age 30.

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And there's a lot of personal and family drama tied up in that, that I really not gonna talk about.

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but I just felt like my time was with the church was done.

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And so remember, this was in the time of, um, ERA and women's rights.

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And that was one of the biggest issues for me is the place of women in the church.

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And it just got to the point where it was, um, no longer sustainable for me to belong to a church that I couldn't fully support in ways and that I felt didn't fully support me.

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So I left and spent the next hh, 20 years or so going from everything between atheism to Wiccanism in fact, as, and I claimed being a none- n o n e for quite, quite a few years.

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Uh, but I still really loved religion.

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And it was when I, um, took a class in gosh, what was it, physics or something like that that I really under that changed my idea of God and turned God from this vindictive Old Testament type of person into more of an idea.

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So then I started exploring religion a little bit more again, more seriously.

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Um, kind of went through this phase of exploring, you know, church shopping.

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I fell in love with the Episcopalians.

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It felt like Catholic light.

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And you know, for awhile I claimed Episcopal Pagan because it was this mix of being empowered as a woman in paganism, but the ritual of Episcopalianism that I really loved.

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Um, and of course, bringing my saints in with things again and part of that journey was becoming a certified spiritual director.

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And I worked in ecumenical type of situations.

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Uh, although I did study with Benedictine nuns, they were so sweet.

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Uh, I remember they told me, I mean, you know, at first I told them, you know, my, my complicated relationship with religion and they would always check in with me.

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It's like, okay, is this too religious for you?

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You know, are we spending too much time on Bible, you know, old testament kinds of stuff.

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Uh, and they were just amazing.

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And so it really helped me kind of forward my own spiritual journey more.

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And it helped me kind of frame what, um, what you and I refer to a seekers kind of this journey of, you know, seeing what works for you and what doesn't and, and deciding, you know, being purposeful in how you pick and choose what you wanted to carry with you and what needs to be set aside.

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Um, my undergrad degree is in philosophy and I took philosophy of religion and really I started to see where religion fit in with that and how, um, religion and how people live their religion is really how they live their personal philosophy and how, you know, philosophy kind of hits the road.

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So went on to do my graduate work in sociology of religion because I felt like that was really, you know, religion happens in community and being able to kind of frame that in that context made a lot of sense to me.

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Um, and when it came time to do my dissertation, they told me to pick, uh, a religious group to focus on that I had some experience with.

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I did my master's on a black church and of course, being a white girl from Utah County, I didn't have a lot of experience with black church.

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Um, so they suggested I, you know, I do something a little closer to home.

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So I thought, well, you know, maybe I looked back into Mormonism.

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That seems like there's a lot of interesting things going on there.

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So I started attending, um, Mormon churches.

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And I don't remember that first time that I went back.

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It was in 2008 and I sat in the parking lot for about half an hour before I walked in.

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And I kept telling myself, I don't have to stay, I can leave at any time, but if I walked through those doors, I have to walk through with an open heart and an open mind.

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And it was incredible.

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I found a community and this was in New Jersey.

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I found a community that wasn't anything like, what are you remembered Mormonism being?

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And I fell in love again with Mormons and, um, decided to do my dissertation on the idea of ward family.

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And, um, in that process, you know, I had to promise that I wouldn't convert to anything while I was doing my dissertation work and which was a wonderful space to be in, you know, so I did participant observation type of research.

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Fast forward, um, to, well, let me back up and just put in one little detail the missionaries that I had there when it, cause I thought, well, I want to make sure I get this right.

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So I agreed to visit some missionaries again and um, I saw lots of missionaries in New Jersey, went through a lot of out of companion pairs, but this one group, this, this, these two specific missionaries that came and visited me, they were incredible.

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Elder Davis and Elder Ogwin.

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And I said, well, you know, if I ever do get baptized again, I'll, you know, I'll call you guys.

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And they said, no, when you, when you get baptized, no matter where you are, we will be there.

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We will come and we'll baptize you.

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I said, OK.

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So, um, fast forward to 2015 when I come to the Bay Area, still looking at where monism.

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By this time I had published my book, uh, had graduated with Phd and thought, well, maybe I haven't felt this connection to Mormonism because I haven't rejoined.

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I, I'm still feel as an outsider.

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So, and the Mormon group here in Oakland was again, an incredible group.

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They were forward thinking.

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They had, um, there was a couple of gay members in the congregation.

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They had this open idea toward women.

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Um, and I thought, well, maybe if I was more active it would make sense to me again because in all of my looking around, um, I always felt like there's this bit of me, it's almost like in my DNA growing up Mormon, you can never really get rid of that and get rid of, maybe isn't the right term, but you know, it's always part of you.

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It becomes part of your identity and who you are and how you process things, how you make sense of the world.

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And so I thought, well, maybe I should give it another shot.

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Maybe I just, you know, jump to conclusions too quickly.

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Or maybe the church really has changed in the past 20 years.

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So I decided to get rebaptized and I call those two missionaries and they came, they came from Utah to baptize me in Oakland.

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It was incredible.

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It was this amazing experience.

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Sadly, my timing could not have been worse cause this wasn't 2015, I got baptized in May, in November is when they announced the policy, the dreaded policy about not being able to baptize children of gay members.

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It was, it was awful.

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And, and I just felt gutted.

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I just felt like so betrayed.

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And then in 2016, I got cancer and it just felt like, you know, life's just too short.

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I need to do something that really feeds my soul and I need to stop trying so hard to fit into something that it obviously just never gonna work.

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So it was at this point that I contacted, um, Robin Linkhart.

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So, and I had met you, you know, so in my church hopping, I had met you in Utah and I'd met Robin Linkhart and, and told her that I had moved to the bay area and she says, Oh, you need to contact on Walnut Creek.

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I think you would really enjoy visiting them.

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So I did.

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And uh, um, took me a little while, but I eventually contacted Gail Roennenberg, Ronneberg, I'm sorry.

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And she's the pastor there.

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And she welcomed me.

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And um, so I went to church and they were just really warm and welcoming and really easy to love.

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And after going there for awhile, I thought this is perfect because I felt like I don't have to give up my Mormon identity.

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I don't have to get up some of the things that I truly love about their religion, but it's like the best.

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They're living their best life.

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It's open and affirming.

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Women can be ordained into the priesthood.

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It's like everything I wanted Mormonism to be, they were, and they spoke that language of Mormon, you know what I mean?

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It's like, and so it felt home, it felt like home in so many ways and I just, I have just never been so happy and it's just like coming home in a way, but to a home that better than when I left it, if that makes sense.

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And, and I just like dove in head first because it felt like, I mean, at my age, I really want to do as much as I can and be as active as I can.

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So, and, and having spent so much time looking and searching and all the research that I've done, it's like, well, I've already done the hard work, spiritual work, um, theologically looking as well as, you know, spiritual and praying and stuff.

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So I've felt like, you know, this really is what I want to do.

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So I just put my heart and soul into it and was ordained in June and, um, yeah, so ordained as an elder and it's just been, I mean, and there's, so the first time that I went to the church that you go to now in Salt Lake, that congregation, it was after Sunstone and I don't remember who blessed the sacrament that week, but it was a woman and I was just reduced to tears just hearing that prayer in a woman's voice.

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I mean, and I still get emotional when I think about it.

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And the very first Sunday that they asked me to do that, it's like, oh, I could barely get through the prayer.

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It's, Oh, it's just, yeah, it's still brings me to tears and it gives me goosebumps.

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Um, something that I thought I could never do.

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And it always felt like in the Mormon Church that I wanted, I was so hungry for God and it felt like God didn't want me because I was a woman and in Community to Christ, it feels like I could bring my whole self that everyone can bring their whole self, your past, your sexuality, your gender, your race, your address.

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I mean your economic status, everything, every single part of you is welcome.

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And that's just incredible.

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What a story.

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Uh, I did not know most of those details.

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I must say like, you know, I, I got to give you Kudos for trying so hard to make it work in the Mormon church.

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I mean to leave at a young age and then to come back a couple decades later and just say this has changed and I'm going to give it another go to then only be let down in such a devastating way right around the corner.

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I mean that's rough, but I, I didn't realize that you are a spiritual director as well that you have that I think is really awesome.

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And it's interesting because when I think of my time in the LDS church, granted I was not an adult in the LDS church for very long.

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I left when I was 26, so it wasn't even a full decade really, that I had as far as like being a grown up in the church.

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Um, but as far as spiritual direction and spiritual practices go, I mean, those were things that I, I think that's what I was starving for.

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And so I think it's interesting because I've recently been in touch with a lot of people who are leaving the LDS church.

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Um, Gina Colvin has a group about Mormons, exMormons who are interested in spiritual formation.

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But I see such a growing, I don't know if I would say movement, but I'll say for lack of a better word, movement of Mormons and former Mormons who are interested in spirituality and spiritual direction goes right along with that.

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So I think it's interesting that that was a, a stop on your journey.

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So kind of that goes along with that.

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I started this online group called Theo Thursday.

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It's theothursday.com and we meet via zoom the first Thursday of every month and anyone can join and, and it's just kind of this open conversation about spiritual issues.

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So yeah.

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Anyone who wants to join, go to the theothusday.com and sign up.

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For sure.

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Yeah, we can leave that link in the description of this episode or can know where to get to it.

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Oh Man.

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I feel like I have a million questions now.

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Um, so I guess one question that I have is after it, it would seem like, and I don't mean to put a words or an emotion on your journey, like project it on there, but it seems like it, you would feel very betrayed after what you went through.

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You know, going through all these different, uh, churches and all these spiritual experiences and trainings and education and church hopping and then to try to settle back into the church of your childhood.

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Only then be devastated.

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I mean, I'm just impressed that you gave another church a second thought, really.

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I think that there's a lot of people who have been through a lot less who just feel so betrayed and jaded on faith communities.

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So I guess I'm wondering how you were able to trust a church again?

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Yeah.

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Well it was, you know, and I'm glad you asked that because just to kind of preface this, one of the things that I notice is that people expect them to be really angry with the church.

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And even now I'm not.

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Um, and to be quite honest with you, I'm not sure why.

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Hmm.

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Um, I think probably because all of the, the research and education that I have in religion, I know religion is perfect.

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Everyone has their flaws.

00:23:17.490 --> 00:23:40.710
Um, and I think for me, going back and giving them another chance had more to do with, I fell in love with the people and I felt like maybe they just need more, well, and, and I don't want to sound, um, egotistical, but I thought, well, maybe I can help change the church from the inside.

00:23:42.180 --> 00:23:47.420
Maybe the church just needs more people who thinks the same way I do.

00:23:48.589 --> 00:23:57.680
Um, and, and so I thought, well, you know, maybe leaving at age 30, like you said, you know, not really spending a lot of time as an adult in there.

00:23:57.681 --> 00:24:05.509
Maybe I just didn't give it as much of a fair chance as I should have and maybe I didn't, maybe the fault was mine.

00:24:05.510 --> 00:24:07.640
So I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt.

00:24:08.329 --> 00:24:14.210
And I think part of that kind of comes from just life experience.

00:24:14.660 --> 00:24:21.079
You know, that you realize you were part in something in any relationship, whether it's with another person or an institution.

00:24:22.460 --> 00:24:28.890
Um, so I just kind of realized, well, maybe I didn't give it my fair shot and maybe I just need, you know, not growing up super orthodox.

00:24:28.910 --> 00:24:35.359
I thought, well, maybe if I was orthodox, maybe it would work for me, you know, maybe let me just try it a different way.

00:24:36.740 --> 00:24:44.630
Um, so full self-disclosure, I, I'm, I have now been married three times.

00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:52.039
I'm married to my current husband, um, six years now, so I'm not wanting to give up easily, you know.

00:24:53.619 --> 00:24:53.619
Okay.

00:24:53.720 --> 00:24:55.220
I'm willing to try it again.

00:24:55.519 --> 00:25:01.789
You know, even though we've been hurting and you know, heart run through the ringer, I'm willing to give it another go.

00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:03.799
So maybe it's just part of my personal makeup.

00:25:04.130 --> 00:25:05.420
That's just the way that I am.

00:25:06.319 --> 00:25:09.890
Um, and you know, and I'm not angry at the church.

00:25:09.920 --> 00:25:15.619
I feel sadness that it's not what I would really like it to be.

00:25:15.980 --> 00:25:18.140
Cause I think it does a lot of good for a lot of people.

00:25:19.490 --> 00:25:36.680
Um, but I'm just not one of those people, you know, I needed to find something that was more true to who I am and, you know, and in both times that I left the church, the kind of like the line in the sand was actually temple, going through the temple.

00:25:38.329 --> 00:25:45.019
So this last time I went to the point where, you know, they said, well, you know, if you want to go through the temple, that's the next step.

00:25:46.009 --> 00:25:53.930
And I really had to stop and think about, well, as a woman married to a nonmember, what does that mean for me going through the temple?

00:25:54.920 --> 00:26:01.849
And started looking at that and, and I just thought, no, I just can't, I just, I just can't go there.

00:26:01.851 --> 00:26:04.250
I just can't, you know, in, in every sense of the word.

00:26:05.059 --> 00:26:12.740
And, and if I wasn't going to go through the temple my stake president asked me, well, what's the next step then on your spiritual journey?

00:26:13.250 --> 00:26:18.170
And I felt like there were no steps left with the LDS church.

00:26:19.930 --> 00:26:20.619
Wow.

00:26:20.710 --> 00:26:21.970
That's really interesting.

00:26:22.630 --> 00:26:26.599
Uh, you may have said this and I may have missed it, but was this the first time or the second time?

00:26:26.730 --> 00:26:27.329
The second time.

00:26:27.700 --> 00:26:28.119
Okay.

00:26:28.420 --> 00:26:30.519
So were you endowed before or?

00:26:31.150 --> 00:26:31.509
No.

00:26:31.150 --> 00:26:31.509
Okay.

00:26:31.839 --> 00:26:31.990
Yeah.

00:26:31.990 --> 00:26:42.190
So before the first time, you know, um, it was that point where we had had a couple of kids and I, and I, the marriage was not really super terrific, but it was okay.

00:26:42.220 --> 00:26:52.740
You know, and I, and two kids, they're amazing men and I, you know, wouldn't have traded, not having that first marriage, you know, to miss out on having those kids.

00:26:52.769 --> 00:26:57.150
But, um, so I thought, well, maybe the marriage would be better if we met through the temple.

00:26:57.390 --> 00:27:03.809
So I kind of pushed my husband to go through the temple and he really drug his foot and said no, you know, he didn't want to.

00:27:03.990 --> 00:27:09.509
And then we ended up getting divorced and that was, that was not the issue, you know, going through.

00:27:09.510 --> 00:27:15.509
But I, but I thought, well that would fix it, you know, cause there's a Mormon girl, you know, going through, yeah that's gonna fix it.

00:27:16.589 --> 00:27:24.940
I just kind of thought it was interesting that both times the temple was kind of the, the temple doors were the ones that closed on me.

00:27:25.750 --> 00:27:26.170
Yeah.

00:27:26.470 --> 00:27:27.730
That is really interesting.

00:27:29.319 --> 00:27:41.869
So I'm wondering then, what does your relationship with God look like through this whole time period when you were searching, seeking church, going back and forth?

00:27:42.380 --> 00:27:51.859
Uh, did you have, you did mention that through a college course, the idea of God's shifted from maybe a man or a physical being to just a, uh, a concept.

00:27:51.861 --> 00:27:53.029
I can't remember what word you said.

00:27:53.069 --> 00:27:53.829
Yeah, yeah.

00:27:54.170 --> 00:27:55.910
But yeah, it's something different.

00:27:55.911 --> 00:27:59.359
So did that heal your relationship with God at all?

00:27:59.690 --> 00:28:02.150
Um, what did, what did your relationship look like through all of that?

00:28:02.599 --> 00:28:03.980
Yeah, what a great question.

00:28:04.009 --> 00:28:04.609
That's awesome.

00:28:05.029 --> 00:28:05.329
Yeah.

00:28:05.330 --> 00:28:24.049
So it is changed a lot over the years and, and I would actually, um, you know, when I, when I work with spiritual direction and I, and I work with people and, and their idea of God hasn't changed or worry about them, I feel like they're not pushing themselves enough.

00:28:25.190 --> 00:28:34.609
So my idea of God has changed quite drastically as it went from being, you know, the old white man in white robes to an idea and a concept and a force.

00:28:35.720 --> 00:28:41.960
And then back to being kind of this mystery, um, has been a complicated relationship.

00:28:42.170 --> 00:28:48.319
And, you know, I joke to people that I fired God on many occasions because He hasn't shown up to work.

00:28:49.619 --> 00:29:08.210
Like, um, and I still use male gender terms to talk about God because, you know, and even though I don't really think of God in that way, that's just, again, part of your religious DNA and just so, yeah, it's kind of, it's a complicated issue.

00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:26.089
And I think, you know, my, my relationship with the Trinity itself is interesting because growing up Mormon, you think of the trinity as three individual personages and um, embodied, you know, two of them actually being embodied.

00:29:26.509 --> 00:29:37.710
Um, and now it's, I still have this kind of push and pull relationship with that.

00:29:37.740 --> 00:29:45.009
Like sometimes it's easier for me to see them as this, you know, mysterious trinity Oh three in one type of thing.

00:29:45.400 --> 00:29:51.910
And then other times I still kind of tear them apart into three different ideas or three different personages.

00:29:53.410 --> 00:29:58.779
Um, so talking about God is more complicated than just one relationship for me.

00:29:58.780 --> 00:30:05.400
It's still kind of this three-way three being type of idea.

00:30:06.750 --> 00:30:30.160
Um, sometimes I feel like God has been more invested in relationship than I have and there has been incredible things, unexplainable things that have happened to me throughout my life that, um, make me believe that God has always been there and always pulling me in one direction.

00:30:31.420 --> 00:30:34.799
Um, you know, some would call that magical thinking.

00:30:36.240 --> 00:30:51.809
Um, but I think that's part of my Mormon heritage that I really love though, is that it really, the relationship with God really is a personal relationship and it really can be real in ways that like you and I's relationship is.

00:30:53.759 --> 00:30:56.940
Um, so it's been, it's still fluid.

00:30:57.000 --> 00:30:59.880
I think it's still one of those things that I work on every day.

00:30:59.881 --> 00:31:03.240
It's like, you know, so who am I in this moment and who is God in this moment?

00:31:04.960 --> 00:31:05.920
That's really beautiful.

00:31:05.921 --> 00:31:06.730
I like that.

00:31:07.990 --> 00:31:17.529
You know, so many of us who grew up with a very specific image of God and maybe God was in a box and you could only think about God in a certain way and God could only interact with you in a certain way.

00:31:17.769 --> 00:31:25.269
But this idea of who is God in this moment kind of bust through all of those walls and constraints that we put on God.

00:31:25.509 --> 00:31:26.250
So yeah.

00:31:26.490 --> 00:31:28.150
Yeah, I really appreciate that.

00:31:28.660 --> 00:31:31.869
And I must say, I think it's okay to use male pronouns for God.

00:31:32.170 --> 00:31:38.089
I kind of have gone through an angry, feminist phase.

00:31:38.470 --> 00:31:39.220
We've all been there, yep!

00:31:38.980 --> 00:31:59.710
My hesitancy in saying that! I feel like the pendulum for me kind of swung really hard in the opposite direction and I had the only focus on the feminine aspects of God kind of break apart that too, because I have a complicated relationship with the idea of mother.

00:31:59.711 --> 00:32:00.250
So this

00:32:00.519 --> 00:32:00.849
Oh, right!

00:32:01.049 --> 00:32:04.029
The mother or whatever, you know, it just, it's complicated.

00:32:04.030 --> 00:32:09.970
So yeah, so I feel like I'm chilling out a little bit and I'm Kinda down in, uh, like yeah.

00:32:09.971 --> 00:32:16.869
God, Male, female, both and non binary, you know, I'm, I'm more relaxed about it now is what I'm trying to say.

00:32:19.430 --> 00:32:19.730
Yeah.

00:32:19.730 --> 00:32:24.980
I, I've had those same struggles and it really is hard I think, especially from both of our upbringing.

00:32:25.400 --> 00:32:29.809
That is so like that's our initial idea of/god and it's hard to let that go.

00:32:30.730 --> 00:32:32.240
And then we know God is bigger than that.

00:32:32.779 --> 00:32:33.559
Yeah, yeah.

00:32:33.560 --> 00:32:37.700
And on one level, you know, you can, you can know that and you can understand that.

00:32:38.089 --> 00:32:42.700
And then every once a while, I mean, it's much less now, but everyone's smile.

00:32:42.710 --> 00:32:46.279
I would just get sucked back into the old way of thinking.

00:32:46.280 --> 00:32:47.329
And then I would get angry.

00:32:47.330 --> 00:32:49.490
So then the pendulum would really swing the other way.

00:32:51.839 --> 00:32:53.250
(laughter) Oh yeah.

00:32:53.569 --> 00:32:54.609
The journey.

00:32:55.240 --> 00:32:57.099
It's called the journey for a reason, I guess

00:32:57.259 --> 00:32:57.920
It is.

00:32:58.269 --> 00:32:58.710
Yeah.

00:32:59.799 --> 00:33:02.079
So, uh, you mentioned the book.

00:33:02.109 --> 00:33:05.079
I'm interested to know more about that.

00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:11.529
Oh, it's, um, the Sociology of, well, let's see.

00:33:11.589 --> 00:33:17.829
It's called a Sociology of Mormon Kinship, The Place of Family Within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

00:33:18.779 --> 00:33:19.259
Wow.

00:33:19.299 --> 00:33:21.630
That, that's not a small book either.

00:33:21.631 --> 00:33:22.930
I mean, you're holding it up right now.

00:33:23.220 --> 00:33:23.660
Yeah.

00:33:24.140 --> 00:33:28.849
It's, um, 542 pages.

00:33:30.470 --> 00:33:35.619
Would you mind giving us an elevator version of, I mean, you don't need to explain the whole book to us.

00:33:36.650 --> 00:33:37.839
And so, yeah.

00:33:37.970 --> 00:33:38.599
Oh, thank you.

00:33:39.230 --> 00:33:40.880
It's not often people ask me about my book.

00:33:40.960 --> 00:33:42.019
I love to talk about it.

00:33:41.901 --> 00:33:42.019
Elevator version.

00:33:44.779 --> 00:33:55.039
Um, when I started looking into Mormons, the first thing that they say is, well, my ward family, and I wondered as a sociologist, wow, that's really interesting.

00:33:55.040 --> 00:33:56.509
What do you mean by ward family?

00:33:56.990 --> 00:33:58.309
Do you really mean family?

00:33:58.970 --> 00:34:03.769
And so this book looks at what they mean by family.

00:34:03.171 --> 00:34:25.369
How that gets perpetuated and teachings and ideas and ideology and actual physical ritual and ritual of things like making funeral potatoes and the recipe for funeral potatoes is in the appendix and for Mormons that is ritual.

00:34:25.460 --> 00:34:25.909
Yeah.

00:34:26.269 --> 00:34:27.320
Funeral ritual.

00:34:27.590 --> 00:34:40.190
So, um, when you know the, my question of do they really mean family and Eh, you know, is it a kinship network and spoiler alert, yes, it is.

00:34:41.480 --> 00:34:42.019
Really is.

00:34:42.079 --> 00:34:43.849
And they treat each other as family.

00:34:43.851 --> 00:34:47.329
In fact, sometimes ward members are treated better than family.

00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:50.239
Yeah.

00:34:50.240 --> 00:34:50.989
I think you're right.

00:34:50.990 --> 00:35:00.139
And actually now I want to just do a whole episode on this topic because it speaks a lot to why it's difficult to leave the LDS church.

00:35:00.170 --> 00:35:00.789
Oh absolutely.

00:35:01.639 --> 00:35:06.610
Especially when you're in a heavily populated area, whether that's in Utah or outside, right.

00:35:06.679 --> 00:35:09.969
Utah, there's a lot of support with that.

00:35:10.329 --> 00:35:10.750
Yeah.

00:35:11.789 --> 00:35:12.059
Yeah.

00:35:12.510 --> 00:35:18.789
And so when you, when you leave that you're leaving your social structure, you're leaving your support group.

00:35:20.429 --> 00:35:20.579
Right.

00:35:20.429 --> 00:35:25.920
I remember in one of Rachel Held Evans books and she did not grow up L DS but evangelical.

00:35:25.920 --> 00:35:37.579
She laments after she has her baby, u m, of who will n ow, who will bring us the casseroles c ause right left her evangelical congregation.

00:35:37.829 --> 00:35:43.860
And I remember reading that for the first time and I was in the midst of my own faith journey of transition as well.

00:35:43.860 --> 00:35:45.840
And I just thought it's the same thing.

00:35:45.840 --> 00:35:47.909
I mean, I live in Utah County.

00:35:48.449 --> 00:35:54.630
U m, and so yeah, when you leave your ward, when you l eave the LDS church, you really are leaving a family.

00:35:54.630 --> 00:35:58.510
So yeah, I'm now super interested to get your book and read it.

00:36:01.380 --> 00:36:01.730
Yes.

00:36:01.949 --> 00:36:07.659
And Oh, what a loss too for that, we've lost Dr.

00:36:07.659 --> 00:36:07.659
Evans.

00:36:07.880 --> 00:36:09.349
I know, I know.

00:36:09.409 --> 00:36:12.230
I still get sad and even angry over it.

00:36:12.320 --> 00:36:12.920
I know.

00:36:13.190 --> 00:36:14.539
It's devastating.

00:36:14.599 --> 00:36:15.769
Absolutely devastating.

00:36:17.170 --> 00:36:19.070
O h, okay.

00:36:19.070 --> 00:36:26.659
So Kris, you, it sounds like you dove head first into your congregation and just getting involved right away.

00:36:27.320 --> 00:36:40.929
It also sounds like you and I kind of have had similar, I don't, I don't know how to word this, but you and I had similar desires where I just wanted to be more involved in church in ways that fed me.

00:36:41.590 --> 00:36:49.690
A nd s o in Community of Christ, I could kind of navigate where I wanted to be engaged with as far as ministry goes in my congregation.

00:36:49.690 --> 00:36:52.900
And so I feel like I really dove headfirst as well.

00:36:53.710 --> 00:37:04.449
U m, so I'm wondering what kinds of things you started doing when you first started attending and then, you know, what does your church involvement look like on a congregational level now?

00:37:04.980 --> 00:37:04.980
Hmm.

00:37:05.039 --> 00:37:05.489
Okay.

00:37:06.599 --> 00:37:20.579
Um, when I first started going, it happened to be kind of during the whole, I guess it was a retreat cycle, maybe Embody and Live retreat cycle.

00:37:20.909 --> 00:37:30.389
And I think with the second time I went to church that the pastor asked me if I wanted to go to the retreat with her and she says, I usually don't ask newcomers if they want to, you know, do this.

00:37:31.710 --> 00:37:33.300
Um, but I was like, yes.

00:37:33.300 --> 00:37:38.849
So anything like that that I was invited to or I found an opportunity for, I just took advantage of.

00:37:38.851 --> 00:37:39.809
And yes.

00:37:39.811 --> 00:37:40.110
You know?

00:37:40.110 --> 00:38:03.909
And, um, so just kind of as an interesting side note, um, the Sunday that it got ordained, the, um, the theme was, um, Act Without Hesitation or something like that, you know, so it's like, that's Kinda been the theme of my involvement in community price.

00:38:04.019 --> 00:38:12.300
So anything that there was an opening for, you know, that like, oh, I can, there's a chance for me to be on the pastor leadership team.

00:38:12.630 --> 00:38:14.010
Like, yes, I'll do that.

00:38:14.400 --> 00:38:17.219
Is there a way that I, you know, can I be the historian?

00:38:17.250 --> 00:38:20.639
Can I come to priesthood meetings?

00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:24.659
Anything that I could do, I just really took advantage of.

00:38:24.719 --> 00:38:28.949
And the more that I got involved, the more I loved it and the more opportunities I looked for.

00:38:29.610 --> 00:38:46.030
So things like, um, even the Theo Thursday, I took the idea, um, the Sierra Pacific conference leaders and said, you know, is this something that, you know, I'd like to be able to do.

00:38:46.030 --> 00:39:00.880
And I'd like to see if it works with the church and you know, maybe we can work t o, you know, w ork together on this as a way for seekers, u m, to reach out and, u h, also kind of a spirituality for members, y ou k now, spiritual practice that they can do.

00:39:01.929 --> 00:39:13.090
U m, so, you know, besides being involved in what was already offered, finding opportunities for myself and saying, here's something I'd like to do and working with leaders on that.

00:39:13.690 --> 00:39:35.679
Um, and then you know, so you might kind of just might resonate with you a little bit that in the LDS church you almost have to be, it's, you're called to do something, you know, and, and you don't just, I mean, you can volunteer for stuff, but it's like, you know, there are certain jobs and things.

00:39:36.280 --> 00:39:46.929
And um, so I remember one Sunday kind of looking forward to my ordination, and they said, oh, well, we need to prepare the emblems for a sacrament.

00:39:47.409 --> 00:39:51.730
And I said, oh, well, can I watch, you know, so this is the mindset.

00:39:51.760 --> 00:39:53.550
And then they'd looked at me and were like, watch.

00:39:53.559 --> 00:39:54.639
Well, yeah, you can help.

00:39:55.389 --> 00:40:02.170
And, and they handed me, you know, the, the sacramental trays and, and the grape juice.

00:40:02.320 --> 00:40:07.269
And I just started crying and they said, well, but you don't have to if you don't want to.

00:40:07.061 --> 00:40:18.159
No, no, you don't understand! Just being able to, to physically handle those kinds of things just meant so much.

00:40:18.161 --> 00:40:21.369
So I was always looking for opportunities to do that kind of thing.

00:40:21.789 --> 00:40:26.539
And right now I think it's the same way, you know, being, feeling a calling to pastorship.

00:40:27.820 --> 00:40:32.440
Um, I just really want to, to serve in every capacity that I can.

00:40:32.440 --> 00:40:48.579
And I really feel like this is the way that I can put my, um, education and experience and personal journey altogether and, and maybe help a congregation help, you know, serve God.

00:40:50.670 --> 00:40:53.460
That's really beautiful, really, really beautiful.

00:40:53.460 --> 00:41:09.050
And I must say that we, we have similar experiences I've opened up, or I mean, not even opened up, but when we've invited others to help prepare the emblems, when people are like, wait, we can do this, I can, I can, I can pour the juice?

00:41:09.210 --> 00:41:16.349
Like, I can set it on the alter and for, yeah, yeah.

00:41:16.380 --> 00:41:17.550
It's a big deal.

00:41:17.550 --> 00:41:31.219
And I mean it is, it's really meaningful to have something that was so barred for so long and it's heresy to even question or think just because of your gender, right.

00:41:31.380 --> 00:41:38.389
Just be invited and it's, it's just like a normal average thing to Community of Christ people, but to seekers, it's huge.

00:41:38.650 --> 00:41:39.199
It is.

00:41:39.469 --> 00:41:39.880
Yeah.

00:41:39.900 --> 00:41:40.789
Really meaningful.

00:41:41.389 --> 00:41:41.900
Yeah.

00:41:42.320 --> 00:41:43.579
Yeah, for sure.

00:41:45.210 --> 00:41:54.300
So, Kris, I'm, I'm also curious, um, I usually like to ask people that I interview, you know, what are their hopes for Community of Christ?

00:41:54.840 --> 00:41:56.550
Where do they see the church heading?

00:41:56.550 --> 00:42:24.000
And I think that this question is especially important because, you know, churches everywhere are shrinking in and out of Community of Christ and, but I do think that there's a lot of reason to hope for the future and I especially think that being a sociologist and studying the sociology of religion maybe you have an interesting insight on spirituality and faith communities and their longevity and just what gives you hope.

00:42:24.940 --> 00:42:25.449
Yeah.

00:42:25.679 --> 00:42:25.829
Well done.

00:42:25.900 --> 00:42:26.949
Another great question.

00:42:27.340 --> 00:42:30.369
I do have a lot of hope for this denomination.

00:42:30.760 --> 00:42:37.420
And I really feel like if we've survived this long, we're in it for the long haul.

00:42:37.750 --> 00:42:38.170
You know?

00:42:38.170 --> 00:42:44.739
And I think we're going through a phase right now where a lot of our members are elderly.

00:42:45.039 --> 00:42:52.630