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Fair Trade

In Part 2 of our Fair Trade episode with Brian Whitney, Brian takes us through his growing interest in Community of Christ over the last few years. Brian shares why he chose to be confirmed a member of Community of Christ and where he hopes his discipleship will take him. 

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Intro and Outro music used with permission:

“For Everyone Born,” Community of Christ Sings #285. Music © 2006 Brian Mann, admin. General Board of Global Ministries t/a GBGMusik, 458 Ponce de Leon Avenue, Atlanta, GA 30308. copyright@umcmission.org

“The Trees of the Field,” Community of Christ Sings # 645, Music © 1975 Stuart Dauerman, Lillenas Publishing Company (admin. Music Services).

All music for this episode was performed by Dr. Jan Kraybill, and produced by Chad Godfrey.

NOTE: The series that make up the Project Zion Podcast explore the unique spiritual and theological gifts Community of Christ offers for today's world. Although Project Zion Podcast is a Ministry of Community of Christ. The views and opinions expressed in this episode are those speaking and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Community of Christ.

WEBVTT

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[inaudible].

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Welcome to the project Zion podcast.

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This podcast explores the unique spiritual and theological gifts community of Christ offers for today's world.

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[inaudible]

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hello product.

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I listeners, this is Brady Mango Olson.

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I am bringing you part two in our episode with Brian Whitney.

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This is a fair trade episode.

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So it's about faith transitions.

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And if you have not listened to the first part of this conversation, please go back and listen to it because this might not make a whole lot of sense because you're missing a whole lot of background and a whole lot of context.

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But, uh, we just kinda jump right back in to the story of when he moves back to Utah, finishing his internship in Nauvoo.

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So enjoy[inaudible].

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I got back from my internship, um, from Nauvoo and, uh, um, wrapped up my final part of my four year degree at, we were state, uh, in history and at this point, um, started doing just some student work for Greg Coforge books.

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I was just transcribing some documents.

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Um, LDS President David O.

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McKay.

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Uh, there is a whole office diary.

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Uh, it's like multiple volumes, um, that his, uh, his secretary Claire Middlemiss, uh, took notes and stuff for him.

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And so I was just transcribing that for eventual publication, which I, I, you know, it's still kind of lingering out there as a project.

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Um, but that's what started me with editing with them.

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And it was just like a 10 hour a week kind of Gig.

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And, uh, and then from there I graduated and they offered me a little bit more work editing historical biographies and, uh, monographs, which a monograph just means that it's like a narrative history on a particular topic as opposed to like a biography, which is on a person.

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And then there's documentary histories, which is what it sounds like.

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It's just like documents, right?

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And so like, uh, like the Joseph Smith papers is a documentary history series.

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Oh.

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So, um, so like right now I'm editing a documentary history of Oliver Olney, who was actually a dissident in Nabu, who in like 1844, 45 and 46 who stayed in Malibu even after he became a dissident.

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Right.

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Which he, so he has a really unique perspective on what was happening in Nabu cause he's like this outsider now who's still living there.

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And, uh, so his documentary history is pretty fascinating.

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Um, so I started doing that and I've been a, with Greg covert books now for the past four years.

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And, uh, and then their marketing guy, um, Brad Kramer was doing their marketing and he started a bookstore down in Provo called a written vision.

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It's like a gallery bookstore.

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And that left a gap there.

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So I took over the, his role as well of doing marketing.

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Um, so you know, if anybody ever, you know, this isn't applaud, but if anybody like listens to our podcast, it's me.

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If you subscribe to our newsletter, it's me, like the, all of those kind of public things for me.

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Um, but you know, it's been a great experience, um, uh, doing all this scholarship and stuff, but I, I really reached this point like spiritually and religiously, I had reached this point where the history really just stopped mattering, right?

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Like you just kind of eventually, like when you're in the throws of like, oh my gosh, all of this stuff is so different than what I had been taught, then it's really upsetting.

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Right.

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And it's naturally, especially if you've had a lot invested into it, which I haven't had nearly as much invested into it as somebody like you who grew up like deep in the yellow belt and probably multi-generation.

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Right?

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I would assume.

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So.

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It's like, you know, everything really hinges on it for somebody.

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Like you were.

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As for me, I'd kind of tiptoed my way around it my whole life.

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And even though I was deeply invested for like a good decade, it wasn't, I wasn't, I didn't have that upbringing component of it.

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Right.

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The whole mission service, the seminary education, the constant church activity, things like that.

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So, so for me, I think it was a bit of a, like it wasn't as high of a fall when when I started, like when, when I started questioning what I believed.

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Right.

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It was like a step down.

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Yeah, that makes sense.

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It wasn't crushing.

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Right.

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So, so I think it was a little easier for me to kind of get over how like how dramatically different the historical story is, right.

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It was, it was just like, okay, you know, and so, um, but I had, I still went through this phase where it's like, okay, I'm just going to just throw myself into the scholarship and I'm not even really gonna think religiously about things.

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I'm just gonna this is just like any other historical study.

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You could be studying the history of the civil war or you could be studying the history of American government or you could be studying the history of American religion and it's all pretty much like you use the same methodology, the same tools.

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You try to like distance yourself from it emotionally, look at it some as objectively as possible.

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Right.

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Which, I mean, we're humans so we can ever be completely objective, but you try to like not feel that like attachment to it.

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Right.

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And, and not feel threatened by it.

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Right.

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I'm, the cognitive dissidence just wasn't there anymore.

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It was just like this.

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I'm just doing history.

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Um, and, and I really threw myself into the whole study of, um, like the second grade awakening period of America and the different religious movements that came out of this period, which is kind of the pre civil war era.

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And you have a lot of, like, there's, there's a lot of, um, fervent belief that this was the end of times.

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Um, millenarianism is how you refer to that, right?

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This is, this is the, the millennium is going to come.

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And there were, the question was as whether we were, uh, going to create heaven on earth before the millennium or whether everything is going to come crashing down and then the millennium and then have an honor.

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Right?

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So it's like the whole pre-millennial and post-millennial arguments with each other.

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And that was like the biggest debate.

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It wasn't the debate of is the world really coming to an end?

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It's, no, it's coming to an end.

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It's a matter of where we're sitting right on the, on either side of it.

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And A, and Evangelical, um, missions were huge during this time.

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Um, and you've have, uh, you know, Methodists ministers that are crossing over across the plains and bringing the good word.

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You've got all of these fringe groups that are growing out of a different ideas.

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You've got a lot of these groups that are coming over.

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They're immigrating and trading, create these little utopian societies.

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Um, and communal living societies.

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A lot of people are most people from with like the shakers for instance.

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And, but there's like tons of these little groups.

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Like there's the Amana colony and there's the Oh night ones.

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And like there's just all of these, like there's hundreds of these little groups that just create these little communal utopias believing that the end of the world was coming, that they were going to create the Kingdom of God, right.

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Prior to, prior to the second coming.

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And you've got, um, these, what you call these Christian perfectionists who believed that they could, uh, they could sort of perfect themselves through obedience to certain principles.

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You have Christian primitive wrists who believe that they can reconstruct the original Church of Jesus Christ, like from the New Testament, you know, I mean, and this is like all very 19th century perspectives because when you really study early Christianity, it was pretty spread out and wasn't really that cohesive, right?

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So, but in their minds, the 19th century, when they're reading the Bible and they're reading the book of acts in particular, um, they see a very cohesive presentation of a church that's being presented allegedly by Paul.

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Right?

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And so for them, that's what early Christianity was and that was the Church of Jesus Christ.

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And that's what they were trying to, to recover and emulate.

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Um, but you know, so I'll, out of all of these different groups, suppose you have like free masonry is really popular during this time.

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Uh, the question of Deism, how is God really in our lives?

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You have just all of these different things happening and occurring.

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Uh, during this, this period, which is like 1800, you know, beginning in about like late 17, hundreds, early 18 hundreds, you've got these huge revival meetings with very charismatic events like the Cane Ridge revival and people just like speaking in the spirit and like barking like dogs and just really insane things.

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And out of all of this fervor, like it creates this, this very fertile soil for religious movements to, to be sprung from.

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So out of that, you get like Adventism, right, which, uh, Adventism started out saying, we've got a very specific date for the end times, right?

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It was like, you know, it's going to be April 14th of 18, 42 that's when Jesus is going to come, right?

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And they all stood out on the hillside in their white robes waiting to receive the savior and then humbly went back to their homes about an hour later and, and, and reconstructed their narrative if maybe it was metaphorical, um, and, but, but Adventism is still around today, right?

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The seventh day Adventist church grew out of that and they were able to successfully reconstruct their narrative and focus on a different aspect of what they were doing, which in this case was Sabbitarians Chisholm, right?

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The idea that the sabbath was on Saturday, not Sunday.

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And that's really what fomented them as a religious identity apart from the groups surrounding them.

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Right?

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So Adventism grows out of this and eventually post civil war, the Jehovah's Witnesses grow out of this and right smack in the middle of the two Mormonism grows out of this.

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Right.

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And so for me as a re, as a thinking, just from a historical, religious, scholarly standpoint, I'm just looking at Mormonism as another movement among movements in American history.

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And I'm not placing a lot of emotional investment into it.

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Sure.

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I'm still attending church on Sundays, you know, with my family and I'm still serving in, you know, some sort of calling in the church and things like that.

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But I'm not really invested at this point.

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I'm just like, okay, you know, we go to churches, what we do, it's good to raise your kids in church.

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And then there's like the whole, like religious scholarship side of me, which is almost like a completely distinct part of my life that I didn't let blend over.

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Right.

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I didn't go to church being like, oh, guess what I learned this week.

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Right?

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Like I didn't want to have those conversations with people who weren't, I mean, this is gonna sound so snobbish, but I didn't want to have this conversations with people who weren't half as well read.

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Right.

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Because I knew that it was just going to be upsetting and threatening.

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Right.

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Um, and again, I know it sounds so arrogant.

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This is like, I know so much more than you that I'm just not going to tell you anything.

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I don't mean it that way at all.

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I just, I just felt like, what's what, what's my goal with this?

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Right?

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Like I actually, I really value faith and I don't, I don't want to shake people's faith.

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Right.

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That's, that's not my goal.

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I do think that it's very useful to have a more reasonable and realistic view on faith, particularly where it crosses over with history.

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Right.

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I think it's, I think, I think people get themselves into a lot of trouble with assumptions about historical facts that, that inform their behavior now and, and their worldview and their outlook on things and particularly their social outlook on things.

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So I'm, I'm, but I've kind of arrived at the point where I'm like, I think you need to know enough history to know that you can draw a line and move past it instead of being mired in it.

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Right.

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So I'm not, I'm not going to be like, well you need to read these 40 books.

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Right.

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Cause I know people won't, but I do think that you should have a basic understanding and a basic primer of things just so you can, if nothing else, just so you can say, okay, I get the context of things now and I see like the human development of this and now I understand that I don't have to just, I don't, I don't have to base my personal belief system on that anymore.

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Right.

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Like, I can, I can choose to just to decide what I want to do moving forward and who I want to be moving forward.

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And that's, and that's something that really stood out to me with community of Christ as a religious group, more or less, it seems like, at least within leadership of the church, it seems like they also arrived at those same conclusions of, okay, here's our past, here's the heritage that we came from, but we're not bound by it.

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Right.

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And, uh, and so that, that, that was always very true.

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It's something I always admired and always wished that the more conservative LDS tradition could learn from.

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Um, sure.

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What really hit me, uh, was in 2015 when the LDS church issued, uh, it's very quietly issued its, um, policy update on LGBTQ couples and their children.

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Um, that was a big blow to me and to a lot of my friends.

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And I think, um, that was the first time in a long time that religion became personal to meet again.

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Right?

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Like, that's, it's weird to say that, but I had been stuck in such, like just a historical thinking and like scholarship side of it that I was just going through the motions religiously.

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Right.

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And it was like just, no, you just go church on Sunday.

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You take the sacrament in, it's what you do.

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But I wasn't like, things weren't hitting me personally.

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Right.

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Like the whole, like ordained women's movement started, um, before this end.

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I, that was, that was one of those moments where I'm like, wow, this really means a lot to these, to these women.

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They really want to be able to participate fully in the LDS church.

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And I support that.

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And I think that's like, you know, you go, but I didn't wanna like I didn't feel like me as a guy that I should just like rush in there and be like, okay, what can I do to make this happen for you?

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Right.

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Like it was just like, I'm gonna Cheer for you from the side.

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Right.

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So I was there when they did the whole march on to Temple Square and asked to get into the priesthood meeting.

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Like I was there, like applauding from the side, right.

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Like, you know, and uh, and cheering him on.

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Um, so I supported those efforts.

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Um, but again, it was like I still hadn't personalized this and tell that policy wasn't how I was, and then it was just like I said, it just felt like a ton of bricks being dropped on me.

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Um, in part because, you know, I mean, I had had that experience in Seattle with LGBTQ members in our congregation who I loved and adored and I thought this is going to break them right?

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This is, this is going to completely break them.

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And then my wife has been very involved in LGBTQ advocacy.

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Um, she's part of an LGBT TQ advocacy organization called glisten that works with public schools to try to create like safe spaces and inclusive curriculum, um, for LGBTQ students.

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And you know, so this was, this was kind of blindsiding to her too.

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Um, and then not long after this, my son from my first marriage came out as gay.

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Um, and so it was just like this trifecta of these three things of being like, this just doesn't feel right to me.

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Right.

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I, I have no justifiable way of explaining this to anybody.

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Um, especially my son who, um, you know, he asked to be removed from the records of the LDS church and I just said, I don't blame you.

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Right?

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Like, I, you know, I will sign your letter.

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Um, it's not a healthy environment for you, so, you know, I want you to just be healthy.

00:17:11.869 --> 00:17:28.579
Um, so anyway, that has been, that, that has really been kind of the catalyst for me to start reevaluating what d, what principles and values do I really have outside of just being a history nerd.

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Like, where do I sit theologically, right.

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And, um, you know, what can I really support?

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Um, and, but I didn't want to respond in anger.

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Um, so I, I did, I did attend, I think you'll recall, I did attend community free service in Salt Lake City the weekend after that was announced.

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And I think, I think we sat with your family, actually.

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Yeah.

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Um, and, and it was just, I couldn't, s I just couldn't attend an LDS service, uh, after that announcement.

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Um, I knew that I would be too angry.

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I would be in tears.

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My wife would be in tears.

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So we needed a place of healing.

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And I knew, I mean, at this point, you know, the new community pricing's hymn book had come out and I knew that you guys would be singing a place at the table.

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Um, and it was like, that's where we're going.

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Right?

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And you guys had announced we're going to have pizza for everybody.

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Like, you know, Seth Bryant was like, well, we're gonna, we're gonna reach out here, you know?

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And, uh, and so it was very good.

00:18:37.509 --> 00:18:38.369
It was very meaningful.

00:18:38.371 --> 00:18:41.400
And my kids still talk about that service to this day.

00:18:41.839 --> 00:18:42.369
Wow.

00:18:42.599 --> 00:18:44.789
That's how much an impact it had on them.

00:18:44.790 --> 00:18:46.440
And that was, that was four years ago.

00:18:46.980 --> 00:18:54.730
And they're like, oh, that church, that, that Pizza Church, right?

00:18:54.890 --> 00:18:56.130
They're like the pizza church.

00:18:57.450 --> 00:18:59.190
They're like, how come our church doesn't do pizza?

00:19:03.710 --> 00:19:05.640
Like, why do I have to wear a shirt and tie?

00:19:06.619 --> 00:19:06.619
Great.

00:19:07.900 --> 00:19:21.809
But anyway, um, that, and I think that Denise at that point knew that eventually I was probably gonna make the decision to affiliate on a more official level with community of Christ.

00:19:21.839 --> 00:19:25.470
And, uh, but I don't think she was quite ready to accept that yet.

00:19:26.250 --> 00:19:45.869
Um, she, I, she needed to go through some internal, um, sort of reflecting on her own thoughts and beliefs about things because she had grown up in a pretty, you know, uh, devout LDS home that taught very traditional, uh, views on things.

00:19:46.200 --> 00:19:59.970
And even though she was a rebel in her early years, she still, um, had a lot of deep values for some of the specific teachings of the LDS church in regards to eternal family ceilings and things like that.

00:20:01.500 --> 00:20:14.700
Um, so, you know, it, it took a, took a while of top I talking about those types of things and, you know, she's got, she has so many friends in the LGBTQ community and, um, I mean this goes all the way back to when we were in Seattle together.

00:20:15.779 --> 00:20:22.440
Um, two of her dearest friends are a married lesbian couple that she just, I mean, she was there, bridesmaid, right?

00:20:22.619 --> 00:20:24.480
And She just adores them.

00:20:24.869 --> 00:20:34.410
And I w I remember talking to her saying, do you really think that God is going to sever their relationship?

00:20:35.549 --> 00:20:51.609
You know, like, because they're lesbians, like they are completely in love and committed to each other in a way that is rare to find even in heterosexual couples, um, and said, you really think that their relationship is going to end, you know, after, after this life.

00:20:51.611 --> 00:20:53.410
And she said, no, I don't, I don't believe that.

00:20:53.411 --> 00:20:56.680
So that was, that was a big turning point for her.

00:20:58.029 --> 00:21:11.950
Um, you know, similarly, uh, even back in Seattle when, when I would take her to like the Episcopalian complex service and she would sit there and just in this beautiful cathedral with this beautiful prayers being sung, being canted right.

00:21:12.490 --> 00:21:14.589
And it would just hit her that this spirit was there.

00:21:14.680 --> 00:21:18.009
And you know, I, that was a very eye opening experience for her.

00:21:18.010 --> 00:21:22.849
She said, you know, I, she'd never really thought about the spirit being outside of our tradition.

00:21:23.309 --> 00:21:23.309
Right.

00:21:23.710 --> 00:21:27.670
Maybe it's such, it's such a silly, small thing, but it's so true.

00:21:28.390 --> 00:21:29.109
It really is.

00:21:29.509 --> 00:21:29.509
Yeah.

00:21:29.559 --> 00:21:51.609
And, but she had an undeniable spiritual experience in this Episcopalian Cathedral where there was like, there were homeless people laying on the floor and like gay couples and elderly and us, and like, it was just this diverse group of people that were just there to find some connection to God, right.

00:21:51.789 --> 00:21:55.029
And to worship and it, you know, it was very moving.

00:21:55.960 --> 00:22:10.359
Um, so that was, you know, those, those types of things had really softened her to just saying, well, you know, maybe, maybe the exclusive claims that we have aren't quite all what they seem to be.

00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:24.819
Um, but still, I just kind of felt like I needed to wait and till I felt like it wouldn't really hurt her before I told her that I wanted to, um, be confirmed and community of Christ.

00:22:25.329 --> 00:22:25.660
Right.

00:22:26.369 --> 00:22:30.039
Um, so it took, it took a few years of being sensitive to that.

00:22:30.519 --> 00:22:51.009
And when I felt like she had reached a point, um, where she could accept it, then I took her out for dinner and said, I told her, I said, I just, you know, I, I feel ever since 2015, I've been feeling like I really want to support community of Christ because I agree with the principles and the principles of equality and justice.

00:22:53.019 --> 00:23:00.670
Um, and, uh, their ecumenical view, um, of their place in Christianity.

00:23:01.869 --> 00:23:06.400
Uh, and she grabbed my hand and she said, I've known this for five years.

00:23:07.839 --> 00:23:13.269
So, um, then I, on my way home, I'd picked her up from work.

00:23:13.269 --> 00:23:14.170
So we drove separately.

00:23:14.470 --> 00:23:20.440
On my way home, I called lock and MCI and I said, lock, are you going to be in town for sunstone weekend?

00:23:20.441 --> 00:23:21.279
And he said, yes, I am.

00:23:21.280 --> 00:23:23.049
And I said, what do you think about confirming me?

00:23:24.220 --> 00:23:25.900
And uh, he wept.

00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:30.369
He was in Mexico at the time and, uh, he wept in.

00:23:30.430 --> 00:23:38.500
And then I contacted after that my, uh, dear friend, John Hamre, who I've known ever since I moved to Utah.

00:23:39.549 --> 00:23:49.910
Um, and, uh, he likewise just said that, you know, it would be an honor and, and wept and, um, that he'd been looking forward to this day for a long time.

00:23:51.109 --> 00:23:57.380
Um, you know, nobody had ever as close as I'd gotten with community of Christ members.

00:23:57.381 --> 00:24:03.440
Nobody had ever once put any sort of pressure on me to make a decision to try to convert me.

00:24:03.710 --> 00:24:04.130
Right.

00:24:04.430 --> 00:24:08.960
The closest that I'd come was, you know, Seth, Brian giving me a little ribbing, right?

00:24:08.990 --> 00:24:13.400
Like, you know, you know that, you know, that you're closer to us than you are the LDS tradition.

00:24:13.401 --> 00:24:15.019
Like, what's the, what's the hangup here?

00:24:15.020 --> 00:24:15.319
Right.

00:24:15.849 --> 00:24:19.519
Um, and, uh, you know, but he's a 70, so he gets away with it.

00:24:19.520 --> 00:24:19.730
Right.

00:24:20.390 --> 00:24:31.369
And, and John Hammer too, um, you know, I remember him saying, uh, you know, if, if, if you ever were to convert, like, what's your like, you know, what's, what's holding you up from something like that?

00:24:31.371 --> 00:24:39.140
And both of them are very, uh, gracious and patient.

00:24:39.170 --> 00:24:43.970
When I would tell them that I don't want to do anything that's going to hurt my marriage or my relationship with my wife.

00:24:43.971 --> 00:24:48.980
Both of them were like immediately, yes, you know, we're not going to do anything that would, that would disrupt that.

00:24:48.980 --> 00:24:52.220
So mate, you know, make your marriage the first priority.

00:24:53.089 --> 00:24:58.730
Um, so yeah, that's, that's really my journey into community of Christ.

00:25:02.130 --> 00:25:04.170
Again, I just have a cheesy grin on my face.

00:25:05.880 --> 00:25:10.680
I understand what you mean about like tiptoeing I think is the word you used around.

00:25:10.740 --> 00:25:13.559
Yeah, no, the peripherals of community of Christ.

00:25:13.560 --> 00:25:28.799
And you know, there's, I think that there's a lot of, um, a lot of people that are really trying to make it work and have to really sift and sort through a wide variety of consequences really for joining a new, a new religion.

00:25:29.339 --> 00:25:34.170
Uh, and so the intentionality that you brought to the decision, I think is wise.

00:25:34.829 --> 00:25:43.410
Uh, and yeah, like you said, something that community of Christ would not put pressure on you, whether it's individuals or church members, you know, maybe they'd crack a few jokes.

00:25:43.411 --> 00:25:45.240
It's like, well, you're already community guys.

00:25:45.240 --> 00:25:56.069
Why don't you make it official, but, um, but yeah, I think that approaching these big life decisions with intentionality is really important.

00:25:56.099 --> 00:25:56.490
So,

00:25:56.640 --> 00:25:56.910
yeah.

00:25:57.559 --> 00:25:57.829
Yeah.

00:25:57.839 --> 00:26:19.619
And a big part of the reason why I decided that I wanted to become a member is because I would like to become involved and helping support mission of community of Christ in more of an official way that, um, that I felt like I couldn't do on the outside, you know, for like for example, um, you know, I've started working with Karen Peter on, on doing, uh, a booth for the Logan Pride festival that's coming up next month.

00:26:20.099 --> 00:26:24.269
And those are the kinds of things that, I mean, could I do that without being a confirmed member?

00:26:24.470 --> 00:26:25.019
Yeah, probably.

00:26:25.079 --> 00:26:49.259
Maybe, but I, it just felt like I should be a confirmed member if I'm going to go out and try to represent the church and try to say, you know, here's a place of, of healing and a place where your heritage is still, um, you know, honored particularly for Utah, uh, LGBTQ individuals where there still is the restoration heritage that's available to you.

00:26:49.289 --> 00:26:51.029
But in a place that's accepting of you.

00:26:52.349 --> 00:27:01.200
Um, you know, so I felt like for me to be able to participate in the way that I want to, um, I felt confirmation was the next logical step also.

00:27:01.650 --> 00:27:06.599
Um, so I, you know, I, I've, I've mentioned that I really enjoy high church and I'm kind of a big high church nerd.

00:27:06.990 --> 00:27:13.410
I love high church liturgy of like the Catholic Church and the Episcopalians and Anglicans and Orthodox.

00:27:13.740 --> 00:27:15.509
The Orthodox make you stand a little bit too much.

00:27:15.510 --> 00:27:24.750
But um, but I, uh, I still like, I'm still very drawn to that and it's, and I totally recognize that is just like the religion nerd in me that's drawn to that.

00:27:25.650 --> 00:27:29.670
Um, cause most people just want to go to church for like an hour, get a snack and be at it and head out.

00:27:29.730 --> 00:27:30.059
Right.

00:27:30.089 --> 00:27:35.700
Whereas I'm all about like the smells, the bells, the standing up, the sitting down, the kneeling, all that stuff is like super cool to me.

00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:46.289
Um, and I, and I've been drawn to the Episcopalian church for a long time because they share so many similar perspectives and values as community of Christ.

00:27:46.380 --> 00:27:46.650
Right?

00:27:46.769 --> 00:27:48.210
They're progressive minded church.

00:27:49.079 --> 00:27:53.730
Um, they fought for a lot of social justice causes, um, throughout the past decades.

00:27:54.029 --> 00:28:00.109
They were one of the early churches to ordain women, uh, 1977 maybe around there.

00:28:00.250 --> 00:28:03.630
So when they began ordaining women, uh, which is pretty progressive for its time.

00:28:03.930 --> 00:28:05.880
And so I have a great admiration for them.

00:28:05.881 --> 00:28:11.400
And of course there's, uh, uh, an Episcopalian congregation that's much closer to me up in Brigham city.

00:28:11.730 --> 00:28:15.390
So I really, it would have been pretty easy for me to move that direction.

00:28:15.750 --> 00:28:22.049
I attended their church several times and they were always very gracious and the pastor was great director, I guess is what you would call her, was great.

00:28:22.109 --> 00:28:25.890
You know, we would sit around and cuss and talk about, you know, Utah history and stuff.

00:28:26.970 --> 00:28:28.230
Um, she was awesome.

00:28:28.289 --> 00:28:40.890
But, um, in the end, the reason why I decided, uh, community of Christ was because of my background, um, in, in particularly in the Mormon tradition.

00:28:41.309 --> 00:28:58.079
And in the restoration tradition and my historical study of the restoration tradition, um, I felt like would be actually useful in a community of Christ context, whereas it's completely un-useful in an Episcopalian context, right?

00:28:58.080 --> 00:29:09.240
Like, it doesn't hold the same value in an episcopalian context for me to discuss the history of the restoration movement or even the different schisms of the Mormon Diaspora.

00:29:10.470 --> 00:29:16.079
But to a community of Christ's audience, it would be interesting and relevant.

00:29:17.279 --> 00:29:17.490
Right.

00:29:17.490 --> 00:29:18.420
Particularly in Utah.

00:29:19.890 --> 00:29:27.359
Um, so it, it came down to, I felt that I had more to offer to a community of Christ.

00:29:27.450 --> 00:29:32.220
It wasn't a which church has the most to offer me, right?

00:29:32.519 --> 00:29:38.519
Because quite frankly, the episcopalian churches just right down the street, it would have been a lot easier just to like, okay, I'm gonna go here every Sunday.

00:29:38.700 --> 00:29:55.930
But then I think I would have felt like everything that I've gone through, all the experiences that I've had, the decade of study that I've put into American religious history, I feel like I would've just like shelved it all and been like, you know, it, I would've had to just like scrap it.

00:29:55.931 --> 00:29:57.339
And just start over again.

00:29:58.059 --> 00:29:58.420
Right.

00:29:58.480 --> 00:30:03.880
And maybe for some people that's super healthy to do that and be like, this is just completely done.

00:30:04.269 --> 00:30:07.269
I'm not gonna think about the restoration narrative again.

00:30:07.660 --> 00:30:10.420
You know, Joseph Smith is the last name I ever want to hear.

00:30:10.779 --> 00:30:11.230
Right.

00:30:11.559 --> 00:30:12.130
I get that.

00:30:12.131 --> 00:30:13.720
That's totally understandable.

00:30:13.869 --> 00:30:23.829
And for them it's a lot easier for them to just completely reinvent their religious identity either as, you know, an episcopalian or a unitarian or nonreligious or whatever.

00:30:23.890 --> 00:30:24.160
Right.

00:30:24.161 --> 00:30:25.089
And I honor that path.

00:30:26.079 --> 00:30:38.980
Um, and I understand it, but I feel like I've put a lot of time into this and I feel like I have a unique perspective on restoration history that I can, that would, again, it would be a value.

00:30:38.980 --> 00:30:40.000
It'd be of service.

00:30:40.630 --> 00:30:43.119
Um, so I wanted to bring that to the table.

00:30:43.849 --> 00:30:43.849
[inaudible]

00:30:44.259 --> 00:30:58.240
that's really interesting that you bring that up because earlier in our conversation you had said something about you weren't necessarily invested as far as your genealogy goes, your family background, whatever, in the church.

00:30:59.150 --> 00:31:16.240
Um, but you have invested a lot, you know, so maybe you weren't totally devastated to the same degree as some sixth, seventh, whatever generations, uh, of people that discover a different narrative of church history, but you still studied it.

00:31:16.240 --> 00:31:21.940
And like you said, you put in hours and hours and years and years of work into this.

00:31:22.240 --> 00:31:29.920
And so to then not to not be able to bring that to your next religious experience would be difficult.

00:31:30.309 --> 00:31:38.440
And I mean, I can relate on a sense of, you know, this is my heritage and my family does go back to the days of Kirtland.

00:31:38.441 --> 00:31:44.890
And, um, so being able to bring that part of me into community of Christ was important for me too.

00:31:44.891 --> 00:31:57.130
So I do think that there's a lot of parallels there, um, that maybe this isn't your heritage going back generations and generations, but it's your heritage of your current life with your life's work.

00:31:57.690 --> 00:31:58.539
Right, right.

00:31:58.640 --> 00:32:04.920
And what I do professionally as an editor with a, a Mormon studies book publisher.

00:32:05.339 --> 00:32:06.569
Yeah, exactly.

00:32:06.750 --> 00:32:07.470
All of those things.

00:32:07.471 --> 00:32:22.769
It's, you know, and another initiative that I would like to do is I would like to, to try to help, uh, support as sustainable, um, House church seekers group, a ministry up in my area, the Logan Brigham City Ogden areas.

00:32:23.430 --> 00:32:33.930
Um, you know, so the day after pride, I'll actually be sitting down with pastor Carla long to talk about the viability of, uh, of a house church up in the Logan area.

00:32:34.410 --> 00:32:53.269
And you know, those, again, those are just things that I don't feel that I would have been able to if I was an outsider, um, to the faith if I was like friendly but not, you know, a, a confirmed member, I would, I would always feel a little bit like I'm infringing and imposing as an outsider.

00:32:53.269 --> 00:32:53.569
Right.

00:32:53.570 --> 00:33:10.490
So I felt like I needed to take that step of being confirmed as a member and then bringing these things to the table of, of what I could do to try to help support Seacrest group ministry, um, historical initiatives, LGBTQ outreach, ecumenical outreach with other progressive churches.

00:33:11.180 --> 00:33:16.099
Like, those are all things that I would like to do because they, they are meaningful to me, right?

00:33:16.130 --> 00:33:22.519
Like, these are the things that I wish I could have done with my previous religious tradition.

00:33:24.109 --> 00:33:27.619
Um, they, they are there for me.

00:33:27.621 --> 00:33:31.369
These are the things, these are, this is my way of walking the disciples walk.

00:33:33.559 --> 00:33:35.630
Um, and, and I felt like I couldn't do that.

00:33:36.220 --> 00:33:48.019
I couldn't, I couldn't go to my local ward bishop and say, I would like to put up a booth at pride parade to do some outreach.

00:33:48.470 --> 00:33:48.890
Right.

00:33:49.849 --> 00:34:08.570
Um, or, um, I would like to start offering some lectures on the history of restoration isn't, but it's not going to be faith promoting, like, it's just going to be like a purely like secular history and discuss Mormonism as just another religious movement of many.

00:34:08.960 --> 00:34:10.130
Are you cool with that bishop?

00:34:10.849 --> 00:34:10.849
Right?

00:34:11.300 --> 00:34:12.619
Like, you know?

00:34:14.909 --> 00:34:15.980
Right, right.

00:34:16.429 --> 00:34:24.400
Um, and, and they're not really in a position in a place to be able to support those types of initiatives, you know, at all.

00:34:24.590 --> 00:34:25.519
No, not at all.

00:34:26.659 --> 00:34:35.510
Um, or even if I was to say, you know, I would like to start a independent study group with those who are questioning their faith, right?

00:34:35.510 --> 00:34:39.590
Even that is like, it's frowned upon, right?

00:34:39.590 --> 00:34:44.869
Because now you're starting to, you're start, it's a slippery slope kind of, you know, kind of thing.

00:34:45.110 --> 00:34:53.090
Whereas with community of Christ, like I bring these ideas up, you know, to, to Karen Peter and to Karla is f and they're just like, great, let's do it.

00:34:53.809 --> 00:35:20.449
And you know, it's, it's just a completely, because what we were talking about earlier, because everything is more localized, right by region, by specific need of congregation, uh, there's just a lot more flexibility to respond to local needs and, and you can, you can bring your creative ideas to the table, I feel anyway.

00:35:20.449 --> 00:35:29.210
And the structure isn't so, um, hierarchical or rigid or solidified to where there's like, no, I'm sorry, but there's no way to do that.

00:35:29.210 --> 00:35:38.760
We would have to run that all the way up the chain and you know, the chances of it being approved are going to be slim to none because there's going to be too many concerns[inaudible] right.

00:35:38.820 --> 00:35:41.400
Instead it's just let's do it right.

00:35:41.400 --> 00:35:49.260
I mean, I can get on a Facebook message with a couple of people and within an hour we've registered for exhibiting at pride, right?

00:35:49.289 --> 00:35:58.829
Like that's just to me that that's a very attractive, um, kind of relationship to have with a religious organization.

00:35:59.219 --> 00:36:04.010
And I think, you know, a lot of it has to do with the size difference, right?

00:36:04.019 --> 00:36:15.360
Being a smaller organization and not having quite as much representation out here, it's a little easier to make suggestions of how you want to help out and have those suggestions heard.

00:36:16.349 --> 00:36:16.769
Right?

00:36:16.860 --> 00:36:24.150
I mean, if there were, if 80% of the population out here was community of Christ, it might be a little different.

00:36:24.719 --> 00:36:31.349
[inaudible] you know, it might be too big to have that kind of immediate, um, support for things.

00:36:31.409 --> 00:36:31.800
I Dunno.

00:36:32.070 --> 00:36:35.539
You know, so some of it's geography, some of its size, some of it's just[inaudible].

00:36:35.849 --> 00:36:39.780
But a lot of it comes down to the religious outlook and the outlook of what the mission is.

00:36:41.340 --> 00:36:49.739
Um, and, uh, anyway, I'm excited to be able to participate in those ways and be able to do something that's like super meaningful for me.

00:36:51.059 --> 00:36:59.250
Um, and feel like I'm actually like walking the path of discipleship that I envision is, um, what I would hope that, that Christ would be doing.

00:37:00.539 --> 00:37:08.579
Um, I've even gone so far to saying, you know, let's just, let's just knock down the walls of the church and let's just start meeting out in like public parks and lakes and stuff for house church.

00:37:08.581 --> 00:37:11.519
And, uh, you know, because that's what Jesus did, right?

00:37:11.521 --> 00:37:19.650
I mean, he just went out to the people and they sat by a lake and talked, and that was, that was church, right?

00:37:20.440 --> 00:37:20.949
Yeah.

00:37:21.699 --> 00:37:23.679
And you know, I'm proud of Zion.

00:37:23.681 --> 00:37:27.340
I interview a lot of people about mission and what they're doing and their areas.

00:37:27.340 --> 00:37:31.869
And one thing that is always repeated is that mission is contextual.

00:37:32.260 --> 00:37:53.800
And so when I think about Utah and the quirkiness that we have here, um, you know, it's, we need people that understand the dynamics, that understand the need, that have lived in the need, uh, to then respond.

00:37:54.099 --> 00:38:19.000
And I saw that very quick quickly when I first came to community of Christ and I didn't necessarily want to be more busy in the sense of just having more things to do, but I wanted what I did to be meaningful and I wanted to actually feel like I was heard in a way that I never could have been as a Mormon woman.

00:38:19.420 --> 00:38:21.190
And that happened immediately.

00:38:21.219 --> 00:38:27.610
I mean, I was able to do things that Mormon women are never able to do as a non member in community of Christ.

00:38:28.360 --> 00:38:34.449
Um, and so then, yeah, joining and, uh, getting involved in a more official capacity.

00:38:34.451 --> 00:38:39.849
Just my ability to just do more.

00:38:39.851 --> 00:38:48.670
And again, not more in the sense of just being busy, just keeping myself numbed out and busy, but actually doing more meaningful, right?

00:38:49.030 --> 00:38:52.780
Giving ministry a was deeply important for me.

00:38:52.780 --> 00:38:53.260
So

00:38:53.400 --> 00:38:57.090
teaching, teaching the five-year-olds in primary, it wasn't as life giving.

00:38:57.090 --> 00:38:57.690
And meaningful.

00:38:58.210 --> 00:38:59.840
That's what holds me calling.

00:38:59.840 --> 00:39:06.880
I honestly had as an adult, as a married adult, I did a lot more when I was, yeah.

00:39:06.920 --> 00:39:08.719
Up at Utah State and Logan.

00:39:09.619 --> 00:39:13.329
Uh, but yeah, I just, I dunno it, yeah.

00:39:13.400 --> 00:39:20.150
It's interesting to actually be in a church that values your thoughts and yeah.

00:39:20.449 --> 00:39:21.019
And creative.

00:39:21.570 --> 00:39:21.570
Right.

00:39:21.860 --> 00:39:22.400
And Yeah.

00:39:22.400 --> 00:39:29.510
Your creative input and your willingness to do things out in the community and willingness to take a bit of a risk.

00:39:29.929 --> 00:39:30.289
Right?

00:39:30.599 --> 00:39:30.599
Yeah.

00:39:30.909 --> 00:39:32.599
Let's just try it and see what happens.

00:39:33.650 --> 00:39:47.659
I think that's[inaudible] I had a great conversation with, with Laughlin when we were at sunstone and he's just like, you know, we're trying to redefine what church is does at this point and like, you know, I mean, it's no question that the younger generation is just not interested in church, right.

00:39:47.661 --> 00:39:49.969
Like, they don't, they don't want to participate.

00:39:49.971 --> 00:39:51.260
They don't want to go there on Sundays.

00:39:51.340 --> 00:39:57.230
They don't want to be in these classes and they don't want to have this like, manufactured relationship with God, you know?

00:39:57.710 --> 00:40:09.260
Um, and it's so, it's like, well, where do we go to try to offer some sort of spiritual support for, for this younger group?

00:40:09.289 --> 00:40:19.130
And, you know, it dawned on me, and I was actually, this was during my, uh, confirmation, um, and I was chatting afterwards while we were all getting a lunch.

00:40:19.610 --> 00:40:27.889
And I, and I said, you know, I, I think, um, the younger generation, we just have to like go out and meet them right where they are, wherever they're at.

00:40:27.891 --> 00:40:37.969
And when you, if you think about it, like, so if you're at a church service and it starts going over about an hour, you start looking at your watch and you get a little antsy, right?

00:40:37.971 --> 00:40:39.440
And you're like, okay, let's go, let's wrap this up.

00:40:39.440 --> 00:40:40.130
Let's get out of here.

00:40:40.550 --> 00:40:53.030
But if you're out with a group of friends or associates, um, maybe even people you don't know that well, but you're just like at a coffee shop somewhere, that conversation go on for hours and you don't even realize it.

00:40:53.030 --> 00:40:55.579
And it's like so edifying and like spiritually uplifting.

00:40:55.581 --> 00:40:59.929
You walk away feeling good and you don't feel like you wasted your time at all and you don't feel antsy about the time.

00:41:00.829 --> 00:41:05.900
And that to me, I think is a real learning, something that we need to learn about.

00:41:05.900 --> 00:41:09.679
Like what does it mean to bring church to the people, right?

00:41:09.769 --> 00:41:11.929
It's not necessarily trying to get them in the pews.

00:41:12.619 --> 00:41:24.079
It's sometimes it's us being willing to go out and meet with them and the place that they're comfortable and uh, and have those, like those enriching conversations and those uplifting conversations.

00:41:24.530 --> 00:41:27.079
So that's just something that I'm kinda like toying around with right now.

00:41:27.380 --> 00:41:50.630
And also even like leveraging technology in that, um, you know, a lot of people are willing, like John Hammer does a great job of having his church brought his Tuesday evening lecture series broadcasts, uh, for people and where he's talking about like different faith traditions and religious traditions and you know, the history of different aspects of society like nationalism and things like that.

00:41:50.690 --> 00:41:57.469
And I, it was, it was really neat to be able to log in and watch those, even though he's in Toronto and I'm out in Utah.

00:41:57.829 --> 00:42:05.690
Like, you know, technology is bringing the world closer together, but at the same time we're also like missing that one on one individual connection.

00:42:06.320 --> 00:42:08.659
So I think we kind of have to minister to both.

00:42:09.369 --> 00:42:21.530
Um, I think that we need to learn how to leverage technology in a way that can create these, like these virtual congregations that are bound like boundary lists at the same time.

00:42:22.280 --> 00:42:23.869
And we have to bring value, right?

00:42:23.871 --> 00:42:28.159
It can't just be, it can't just be sermons, right.

00:42:28.161 --> 00:42:32.480
It has to be something that actually like, that people really like are interested in.

00:42:32.940 --> 00:42:35.539
Um, like John Hammer does a great job with his historical topics.

00:42:35.869 --> 00:42:40.909
You also do the zoom meetings and it's usually on some sort of relevant social topic.

00:42:41.119 --> 00:42:41.360
Right.

00:42:41.449 --> 00:42:44.389
I would love, I would love to do some history type work doing that.

00:42:45.530 --> 00:42:51.440
Um, and you know, there's that and people feel this real sense of online community identity.

00:42:51.920 --> 00:42:53.210
Like it's not fake, right?

00:42:53.239 --> 00:43:00.199
I mean, yeah, people legitimately feel when they're part of an online community that they really are a part of an actual community.

00:43:01.579 --> 00:43:11.510
Um, and they're willing to give, you know, uh, financially their time, whatever, to support that community that they believe in, um, or that they feel that they're getting value out of.

00:43:11.750 --> 00:43:16.849
At the same time, I also think that like physical meetups are super helpful, right?

00:43:16.851 --> 00:43:23.389
Like it can't just be all virtual, you know, I mean, for some people that live way out in the middle of nowhere, that's their only option.

00:43:23.780 --> 00:43:48.320
But I think most of us have the opportunity to, to get out and meet with people, you know, whether it's on a Sunday basis in an actual church setting or whether it's, like I said, the coffee shop setting or private houses or whatever, but, you know, smaller groups of 10, 15 people having meaningful conversation to me is modeling community, you know?

00:43:49.099 --> 00:43:58.969
Um, so anyway, I just think, I think that this is where if you ask me, where can church really head in the future to where we can, uh, really, like I said, support the next generation.

00:43:58.971 --> 00:44:03.110
I think those are the things that we should really be looking at because that's the kind of life that they live.

00:44:05.139 --> 00:44:06.880
Yeah, I agree 100%.

00:44:07.539 --> 00:44:13.119
Uh, and you know, a big chunk of my ministry does happen online.

00:44:13.380 --> 00:44:16.300
Um, I'm also heavily involved in leadership in Salt Lake.

00:44:16.329 --> 00:44:23.769
That happens face to face, but even actually we have implemented technology with in the Salt Lake congregation.

00:44:23.771 --> 00:44:33.119
So we do monthly zoom meetings or quarterly zoom meetings and um, you know, just have different opportunities to connect and face to face.

00:44:33.121 --> 00:44:38.670
And like you said, you know, it doesn't have to be all or nothing swinging one way or the other.

00:44:38.820 --> 00:44:39.750
Yeah, completely.

00:44:39.751 --> 00:44:49.230
But yeah, just having more options and not letting ourselves be held back because we've quote unquote always done it this way.

00:44:50.010 --> 00:45:02.280
I get a little defensive when people talk down on social media and how can relationships really foster and how meaningful can it be and can people really learn about the church through social media?

00:45:02.280 --> 00:45:03.789
And I mean I, yes.

00:45:04.170 --> 00:45:04.650
Yeah.

00:45:04.650 --> 00:45:24.190
I'm a strong advocates for that cause the reality is, I mean in Salt Lake, we usually have people come in who know way more about community of Christ than your average person on the street here because they have already quote unquote investigated or researched.

00:45:24.329 --> 00:45:24.630
Yeah.

00:45:24.900 --> 00:45:25.409
Yeah.

00:45:25.411 --> 00:45:29.099
So I mean they come knowing a lot.

00:45:29.519 --> 00:45:39.400
Um, you know, a lot of times I'll recommend maybe the John Dolan Mormon stories podcast with Stevie z or stuff with John Hammer and they're like, oh yeah, we've already watched that.

00:45:39.650 --> 00:45:40.800
I'm like, of course you have.

00:45:41.190 --> 00:45:42.780
Right, right.

00:45:43.380 --> 00:45:55.320
A lot of times they've, they even followed me on Facebook already or they're in the latter day seekers group or they listened to Gina Colvin or you know, they, they've already made connections and then they want the face to face.

00:45:55.320 --> 00:45:57.449
So that's what gets them through our doors.

00:45:57.451 --> 00:45:57.690
So.

00:45:57.820 --> 00:45:58.960
Totally, totally.

00:45:58.980 --> 00:46:05.409
I S and I, like I said, there is a benefit cause sometimes you just need to get together with people in person and just weep for sure.

00:46:05.469 --> 00:46:05.739
Right.

00:46:05.740 --> 00:46:08.139
Which is not something that you're going to do as easily online.

00:46:08.329 --> 00:46:08.329
Yeah.

00:46:09.039 --> 00:46:15.880
Um, you know, but you just need to have that physical touch of somebody just putting their arm physically on you while you are crying.

00:46:16.420 --> 00:46:17.019
You need that.

00:46:17.139 --> 00:46:17.500
Right?

00:46:17.650 --> 00:46:22.750
And so I think there's definitely the place to try to foster those types of communities.

00:46:23.230 --> 00:46:29.860
Um, but yeah, I mean as far as just like the whole learning and outreach and, um, those types of models.

00:46:29.860 --> 00:46:33.909
I mean, there's so much that can be done outside of a chapel setting, in a congregation setting.

00:46:35.139 --> 00:46:48.670
Um, and quite frankly, there's so many people out there that are like, man, if church was seriously going to a public park and letting my kids play while we sit around and eat and talk about spiritual principles, I'm there.

00:46:50.429 --> 00:46:53.110
Like, that's, that's my comfort level, right?

00:46:53.110 --> 00:46:54.550
That's where I'm willing to do.

00:46:54.880 --> 00:47:00.219
And in, and even if those, like sitting around talking about spiritual principles, it needs to be super authentic, right?

00:47:00.221 --> 00:47:05.469
Like there has to be room for, for differing views and dissension and anger.

00:47:05.471 --> 00:47:12.309
And like I said, you know, profanity and love and like the whole thing, right?

00:47:12.311 --> 00:47:15.849
All of those things just is, this needs to be like super human and super real.

00:47:17.199 --> 00:47:31.389
Um, and uh, and not trying to put on the errors and like, I dunno, manipulating emotion, uh, into, in, in, in, into bearing false witness or false, but just being super authentic with people.

00:47:32.559 --> 00:47:42.579
Um, you know, if I look at Christ ministry or at least what's been written about Christ's ministry after the fact, what we see is a super authentic guy, right?

00:47:42.639 --> 00:48:06.190
Who was willing to just go out and heal people and, and be with them and eat with them and touch their lives and listen to them and be authentic back to with them, um, and cry out against the same injustices that they were crying out against and the same forms of oppression that they felt in their lives.

00:48:07.329 --> 00:48:12.909
Um, and I think that, you know, I said it in my confirmation talk.

00:48:12.911 --> 00:48:17.260
He didn't sit there in a synagogue just waiting for people to come find him in his message.

00:48:17.769 --> 00:48:23.230
You know, he went out and he was constantly just among the people offering himself to them.

00:48:24.010 --> 00:48:31.449
And I think that's when we talk about the idea of a re a restoration, you know, the restoration such in 19th century concept, right?

00:48:31.539 --> 00:48:42.039
It's like, it was based on this very, um, number one egotistical notion that there was some sort of form of like 100% absolute truth, right?

00:48:42.369 --> 00:48:47.679
Number two, number two, this false idea that it was ever a unified and cohesive.

00:48:48.519 --> 00:48:56.739
Um, it was just this very misguided view of what early religion, of how religion develops and what early Christianity really looked like.

00:48:57.639 --> 00:49:01.090
Um, and I'm not saying that to denigrate them because they were very sincere, right?

00:49:01.329 --> 00:49:07.840
They were, they were very sincere in their search for a true, the true faith before Jesus's return.

00:49:08.099 --> 00:49:08.440
Right?

00:49:08.440 --> 00:49:18.489
So, but we've gotten to a point now where I think we can reevaluate that, uh, just like we do millenarianism and other things and we can say, well, what does the restoration really mean to us?

00:49:19.150 --> 00:49:19.539
Right?

00:49:19.630 --> 00:49:30.340
And I mean, I would love if what restoration really means to us is this idea of, well, I mean it's, it's in the name, the idea of community, right?

00:49:30.340 --> 00:49:39.429
And the idea that what Jesus was really doing was building a community of people and he wasn't starting a church, right?

00:49:39.431 --> 00:49:46.960
He, he was, he was out there building a community, um, several communities really that, that came off from it.

00:49:47.019 --> 00:49:57.550
But, um, so I don't know, I think, I think that that's something that we can, that we can play around with this whole concept of what does restoration mean to us now in the 21st century?

00:49:57.550 --> 00:49:58.750
What are we restoring?

00:49:59.079 --> 00:49:59.440
Right?

00:49:59.469 --> 00:50:06.730
And I think in some ways we've lost this idea of close community, right?

00:50:06.789 --> 00:50:09.460
Because we're all so busy now with our lives.

00:50:09.699 --> 00:50:17.860
We're all pulled one way or another and distracted so much by media and by, um, everything going on around us.

00:50:17.860 --> 00:50:21.340
It's really hard for people to find that place of community.

00:50:22.780 --> 00:50:25.750
Um, so let's restore community, right?

00:50:26.969 --> 00:50:28.260
I don't want to make any promises

00:50:28.260 --> 00:50:38.519
here, but I am suddenly seeing a whole new project I series in this recently talking to people about what does it mean to be a prophetic people.

00:50:38.521 --> 00:50:43.829
And I think it'd be amazing if we talked to a bunch of people about what does it mean to be a church of the restoration.

00:50:43.831 --> 00:50:45.269
What does restaurant mean?

00:50:45.360 --> 00:50:45.630
Right.

00:50:45.630 --> 00:50:45.809
Right.

00:50:45.900 --> 00:50:49.199
You got, you got to find a coffee spin on that though to keep it consistent with the theme.

00:50:49.530 --> 00:50:50.340
Oh, for sure.

00:50:50.369 --> 00:50:51.510
Well, I'll get working on it.

00:50:53.940 --> 00:50:54.360
Excellent.

00:50:55.360 --> 00:50:58.179
Ah, well Brian, this has been such a good conversation.

00:50:58.719 --> 00:50:59.949
Um, it's been really helpful.

00:50:59.951 --> 00:51:02.289
I've loved getting to know you a little bit more.

00:51:03.159 --> 00:51:10.659
Um, and when I heard the news that you were being confirmed on sunstone Sunday as we call it, and I was like, Yay.

00:51:12.739 --> 00:51:23.300
And on the other hand, of course she was so sensed on Sunday and I mean it was because it was convenient.

00:51:23.329 --> 00:51:25.969
It really was, is because it was because lock was going to be out there.

00:51:25.971 --> 00:51:27.829
John is going to be out there and I'm like, let's just do it

00:51:28.920 --> 00:51:28.920
really.

00:51:28.989 --> 00:51:35.519
I mean, again, I can relate to that to my baptism and confirmation date was based around Robin Link Card schedule.

00:51:35.579 --> 00:51:36.809
So it worked out perfectly.

00:51:38.539 --> 00:51:42.309
But, but at the same time, my husband's work, right.

00:51:42.579 --> 00:51:51.099
But at the same time too, I thought that it was a fitting weekend because I knew that there was going to be a number of people there who have known me for a long time who attend sunstone.

00:51:51.190 --> 00:51:51.460
Right.

00:51:51.460 --> 00:51:57.099
Who wouldn't ordinarily come to a community of Christ worship service or you know, or whatever.

00:51:57.101 --> 00:52:03.349
So it was really great to have a few people out there who, who I've known for, you know, personally for a long time.

00:52:03.829 --> 00:52:05.989
Um, in the Mormon studies circles and everything.

00:52:05.990 --> 00:52:09.650
And you know, a lot of them were pretty surprised, but very supportive.

00:52:10.940 --> 00:52:13.670
Um, you know, I didn't get any lack of support from anybody.

00:52:14.750 --> 00:52:22.400
Um, but so I, it kind of felt good to be able to make this public declaration, um, and say, yes, this is what I affirmed.

00:52:22.400 --> 00:52:23.420
This is what I believe.

00:52:23.480 --> 00:52:39.170
And, uh, you know, like I, like I talked about in my confirmation, um, I, I've been thinking about the idea of the, the Hebrew, um, the story of the ancient Hebrews going through the, uh, the 40 years of wandering, right.

00:52:39.260 --> 00:52:44.780
And them having to break down their tabernacle and then move and then rebuild it.

00:52:45.440 --> 00:52:47.329
Um, and I kind of felt that in my own life.

00:52:47.960 --> 00:52:57.230
Like, you know, I just, I had to break down the tabernacle and, and that spiritual home of myself and just really re-examine like, where am I moving to here?

00:52:57.260 --> 00:53:18.590
And you know, it, it did come down to really analyzing where do I sit on a lot of these, like a lot of these topics that are really important to a latter day saint and, uh, and in conversation with several very, what we would call kind of conservative Orthodox believers, realizing just how different I was at this point.

00:53:19.280 --> 00:53:24.050
And like how I tend to reinterpret things like what restoration means, right?

00:53:24.050 --> 00:53:30.570
And like that it's, it wasn't about restoring authority or restoring ordinances that it's a bigger project.

00:53:30.960 --> 00:53:36.690
And, and I, and that's really what it came down to was just realizing where I sit on these things.

00:53:36.780 --> 00:53:40.650
You know, as, as I indicated, it was so easy to get lost in history and just studying history.

00:53:40.889 --> 00:53:48.539
But where do I personally sit on these issues and where does my theology rests was a question I hadn't asked myself.

00:53:48.599 --> 00:53:53.280
And then when I did started asking, I started really looking into that and asking those questions.

00:53:53.280 --> 00:53:56.730
It was like, holy smokes, I have really progressed.

00:53:56.731 --> 00:54:00.000
Like, or some people would say digress.

00:54:00.059 --> 00:54:00.510
I don't know.

00:54:01.019 --> 00:54:10.889
I've, I've really like shifted away from mainstream belief on a lot of these things and I still find tremendous value in a lot of them.

00:54:10.889 --> 00:54:15.030
But man, do I look at them so differently now than I ever did before.

00:54:15.030 --> 00:54:22.949
And then when I really looked at it and said, you know, every single one of those things like are while those areas, like what does authority mean?

00:54:23.309 --> 00:54:28.889
What does exclusive, how does exclusivism like factor into religious life?

00:54:28.891 --> 00:54:41.400
How does like all of these, these, these things, when I start really looking into it, I'm like, I'm, I sit a lot more closely with where community of Christ is on these topics.

00:54:41.579 --> 00:54:50.789
And, and even the areas where maybe I'm not like 100% it's still like there's a lot of tolerance for where I am.

00:54:50.791 --> 00:54:51.150
Right.

00:54:51.179 --> 00:54:56.219
It's, you know, because there isn't that, that impulsive need to be like, no, this is the way it is.

00:54:56.221 --> 00:54:58.559
This is the doctrine, right?

00:54:58.561 --> 00:55:00.000
It's like, no, this is the principles.

00:55:00.059 --> 00:55:04.110
These are the principles that we teach and you're totally within that realm of those principles.

00:55:04.110 --> 00:55:05.940
So we love you, embrace you and support you in it.

00:55:07.110 --> 00:55:11.130
Um, and yeah, just that just felt like that that was emotionally for me.

00:55:11.130 --> 00:55:22.730
That was my transition point of, of realizing just how much I have personally internally shifted, um, on my theology and yeah.

00:55:25.179 --> 00:55:26.070
Thank you Brian.

00:55:26.269 --> 00:55:27.440
Thank you for sharing all of this.

00:55:27.650 --> 00:55:36.579
There's a lot of relatable content at different points in your story and I think it's going to be one of interests and one that helps people.

00:55:36.670 --> 00:55:37.059
So

00:55:37.489 --> 00:55:37.760
thanks.

00:55:38.000 --> 00:55:39.710
I appreciate the time.

00:55:39.710 --> 00:55:41.599
I know it's been much longer than we anticipated.

00:55:41.739 --> 00:55:42.820
No, this is good.

00:55:42.820 --> 00:55:47.199
I actually will probably split this into two, a two parter, which I think is great.

00:55:47.289 --> 00:55:47.710
So

00:55:47.920 --> 00:55:48.280
great.

00:55:48.309 --> 00:55:49.239
Well thank you.

00:55:49.539 --> 00:55:49.960
Awesome.

00:55:56.900 --> 00:55:56.900
[inaudible]

00:55:58.389 --> 00:55:59.880
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00:55:59.900 --> 00:56:08.139
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00:56:08.530 --> 00:56:12.280
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00:56:12.280 --> 00:56:12.550
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00:56:12.550 --> 00:56:17.170
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00:56:17.679 --> 00:56:30.849
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00:56:31.369 --> 00:56:34.659
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00:56:55.420 --> 00:56:55.420
[inaudible]

00:57:01.309 --> 00:57:05.059
[inaudible][inaudible].