Episode 232: Percolating on Faith: God Shots: Holy Spirit

Show Notes
Transcript

Continuing our God Shots series where we talk about systematic theology, Tony and Charmaine bring us a conversation about the Holy Spirit. As the third member of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit is often misunderstood or even makes us uncomfortable. Tony and Charmaine walk us through ways the Holy Spirit is experienced in scripture as well as it's meaning for us today.

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Intro and Outro music used with permission:

“For Everyone Born,” Community of Christ Sings #285. Music © 2006 Brian Mann, admin. General Board of Global Ministries t/a GBGMusik, 458 Ponce de Leon Avenue, Atlanta, GA 30308. copyright@umcmission.org

All music for this episode was performed by Dr. Jan Kraybill, and produced by Chad Godfrey.

NOTE: The series that make up the Project Zion Podcast explore the unique spiritual and theological gifts Community of Christ offers for today's world. Although Project Zion Podcast is a Ministry of Community of Christ. The views and opinions expressed in this episode are those speaking and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Community of Christ.

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[inaudible].

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Welcome to the Project Zion podcast.

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This podcast explores the unique spiritual and theological gifts Community of Christ offers for today's world.

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Hello and welcome to the Project Zion podcast.

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I'm your host, Carla Long and you're listening to Percolating on Faith, a podcast series where we talk about all different kinds of matters of faith, everything you wanted to know and didn't want to know about theology.

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And I'm assuming it's mostly things you want to know.

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I could be wrong about that.

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This is actually a subset of Percolating on Faith.

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It's called God Shots and we're doing some systematic theology through lots of different matters of faith.

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And I'm here as always with by guests.

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Charmaine and Tony Chvala Smith.

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Hello.

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Hello.

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Hello.

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How are you?

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I'm just getting over a cold, gentle listener.

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So if you hear me do this, it's because that's why I'm so sorry about that.

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I'm going to try really hard not to do it right in the microphone.

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We want the listeners to know that if they hear that it's not from Charmaine or me, it is from you.

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It's definitely from me.

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Definitely.

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If you hear any other noises though, that's totally Charmaine.

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Probably Tony!

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So today when I was making notes about what we're going to talk about today, I wrote that we're going to be talking about the Holy Spirits.

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I don't know why I decided to put make it plural, but it's not because I was drinking Holy Spirits.

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I p romise you that we are talking about the Holy spirit today and how it fits into our lives and what it does and all about the Holy Spirit.

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So as we were talking earlier about this and as I was thinking about it, it does seem like to me that the Holy Spirit is probably the least understood of the Trinity from the Father, Son and Spirit.

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We, I don't think we understand it very well at all.

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I, and, and I think we might be a little bit fearful of it because we can't control it maybe or because we can't figure out exactly what it does and does it just promote feelings within us.

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So I think this could be a r eally interesting podcast to learn about more about what it is and what people have said in the past about what it is.

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So let's, let's just jump in about, you know, what is the Holy Spirit.

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Sure.

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I, I think your, your reflections on that o r a re well b orn out.

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In fact, there's a British theologian from the 1920s and thirties and forties that I've, I'm probably, I've probably quoted before, William Temple.

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William Temple says t hat the Holy spirit is the least understood of the persons of the Trinity among Christians.

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But the ironic thing is that the spirit is t he, the part of the Trinity w e're most constantly in contact with because the Spirit, the Holy spirit is the spirit of God.

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It's God, the Spirit present in and through all things.

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The spirit that animates creation that, that in classical theology is called the life giver, the one that gives life to things.

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And so actually w e're in contact with the Holy Spirit all of the time.

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And it's just that Western theology has tended to focus on the first two persons way too much.

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And on the third person, not so much at all.

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So that's kind of a weak point in our Western theology.

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And maybe that's partly because Western thought is more concrete wanting, wanting things that can measure a name and describe in some ways.

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So yeah, the spirit is that element of God that we hear about even in the Old Testament.

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Sometimes God's presence is called the Spirit or the Spirit of God.

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So it's something that as Tony mentioned, is there in c reation but also present in ways that people could see, could experience could rely on in difficult times and times when they had made mistakes.

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Anyhow, it's, it's a constant through the scriptures.

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Once you're looking for it

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And Carla, you, you win your language about the spirit.

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A few minutes ago, I think you, you were attending towards the idea of like what is the spirit?

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But what if I changed the question to who is the spirit?

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How different is that when I say it?

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Oh, that's a really good point.

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You know,that changes a lot of things for me.

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Like for instance, when you think of who you want to get a kind of a picture in your head of who, and I'm, I a lot of times I've heard of the Spirit being referred to in the feminine and actually most of the time I think I hear it referred to in the feminine.

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So that changes a lot.

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Is the spirit feminine?

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Ah, ah, that's a good question.

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And I think it's, it's as good a question is asking is, is the source the, the part of God that we, the source or father is, is that a gender?

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And in a, and I think that's, it's an equally that's as equally an important question as is what is, does the Spirit have a gender?

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And I would say, you mean we can talk about it from lots of different perspectives.

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In the Hebrew, the word that is used to indicate God's Spirit is feminine.

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In the Greek it's, or it's it.

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And in the Latin, which is the one that like the King James version would have been dependent on.

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It's a he and so[inaudible] so we were chatting about this earlier and it's like, well, maybe, maybe the Spirit is gender fluid.

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And maybe, you know, it's a, this part of, of this element of God is not able to be strictly defined by gender.

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In fact, I would say it's not healthy to see any of the three as tied to our particular gender definitions because whatever, whenever we use gender language, it's super dependent on the cultural definitions of the hearer rather than what was being intended initially.

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And so the Spirit sometimes has been seen as being equated with Sophia in the Old Testament wisdom.

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And you know, there's some, some good correlations there, but it's also something more than that.

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And so I think as with gen trying to gender any part of the Godhead, we would would say his, historically the Spirit has been more often connected with the feminine.

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But again, that's not to say, Oh, well we don't want to, to caricature what the feminine is either by the constructs of our culture.

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So, you know, we don't want to say, well, you know, the Holy spirit is, is a comfort, or because my mother was a comforter this Holy spirit is a whole bunch of other things too.

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And Tony was just reminding me that in the gospel of Mark in the, in the first chapter after Jesus' baptism, it's the spirit in the shape of a dove that drives Jesus into the wilderness.

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This is no gentle patting you on the or soothing your, you know, rubbing your arm, kind of part of God.

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This is one that that motivates directs and so, and it has it's own kind of power.

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So I don't know, it's a very long answer to your question, but it's a great question.

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To me, this is a place where the, where the, the classical kind of patristic Greek tradition of Christian theology can be really helpful in recognizing, you know, Greek, the Greek theologians like Saint John of Damascus were really very careful in their language and recognized.

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They recognize that all of our language about God is limited.

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It's all partial.

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God, the, the eternal Triune God is unlimited.

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An uncircumcised, drivable meaning our concepts cannot just somehow cover everything about them.

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And so at the same time, it's kind of cool once, you know, starting there, recognizing that that God is beyond all constructs, including our gender constructs.

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At the same time, it's kind of cool and helpful to think of the spirit of Yahweh in the Hebrew Bible or the Spirit of God in the Hebrew Bible as sometimes being depicted with, with mothering characteristics.

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For example, in Genesis, one of the very first few lines of Genesis, the creation story, where, where first creation story where the Hebrew text says, you know, and, and the spirit of God was hovering brooding fluttering over the, the face of the deep.

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So that's, it's, it's an image taken from watching birds sit on nests.

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And so I, I mean, I think there's, there's something to be gained from that.

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At the same time, limiting God to these gender categories is, is really problematic.

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And so we just have to, you know, I agree with totally assured him.

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You'd have to be somewhat careful not to, not to use these in confining or social construct reinforcing ways.

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Right, right.

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And you know, I know it's awkward, but even with the Jesus part, yes, Jesus was as a human being male, but he certainly broke a lot of the stereotypes of his day about what maleness was and would today I think as well.

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So it's, it's not helpful to, to just to say that is the defining feature of who he is.

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But anyhow, that's always a fun conversation to have.

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It's a really interesting conversation to have because, you know, our puny little minds want to put things into categories and it feels comfortable to put things into categories and it feels good.

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If, if, if we can understand the spirit, at least in that way, I do want to actually jump kind of back to a podcast we've already done and that was on the Trinity.

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And I wanted to ask you to maybe recap or talk to us about how the spirit fits into the Trinity, if you could.

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Sure.

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So again, let's go, let's, let's just say that we're, we're in the realm of mystery here.

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We, we, we're not, we're not describing a recipe.

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We're, we're, we're in the realm of mystery.

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And when, when we start talking about the language of the Trinity we, we, we believe the language points to something real at the same time, it has sheer limits.

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So that's a place to start.

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So the, we're, we're talking about the, one God, Christianity is a monotheistic religion, but what's unique in Christianity is that Christianity's monotheism is reframed through the experience of Jesus and the sending of the Spirit.

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So that, so that God is always the God of the Lord Jesus Christ and the God of the Holy Spirit.

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In other words, father, son, and spirit to use the traditional language are not three gods, but three ways of referring to the same God.

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I love Karl Bart's little formula here.

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God is God's self three ways.

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And so what that means in relation to the Holy Spirit is that the Holy spirit is not a less than not just some kind of free floating energy that has nothing else connected to it.

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The spirit is not, I mean, really not neither the, the Father, Son and Spirit are not parts of God.

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They are God, God three ways.

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And so the spirit is as personal, as creative, as redemptive, as transformative, as Christ, as the father.

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In other words, creation, redemption, creation, redemption, sanctification, glorification, transformation.

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These are all the work of the one God who is 3 persons.

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So here's one of the things that's kind of interesting about the whole long tradition within Christianity as to how we describe the Holy Spirit's relationship to the other two persons of God is that one of the, the big dividing points between Orthodox Christians, so Eastern Orthodox and the Western church, the Roman Catholic church and all of those.

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That, and then Protestantism is that in the, in the Eastern church and the Orthodox church, their statement of belief would indicate that both Christ and the Spirit come from the father emanate from the father.

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The Western church without consulting the Eastern church changed that to say that the Spirit emanates from the father and the son and this whole idea of emanations, you know, so what is the source from which the Spirit comes was a very contentious disagreement in fact caused the part of the, part of the reason for the split between the two churches.

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So, so Tony, go ahead.

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Yeah.

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As I said, that the technical Charmaine's using the word emanation, which, which works stuff, the technical term is proceed.

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So the, in the Orthodox tradition, the Spirit, the Spirit proceeds from the father.

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In the Western tradition, the spirit proceeds proceeds from the father and son.

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Just just for listeners who were into the technical language, it's the, this is called the[inaudible] the procession.

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Thank you.

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And that's not about a couple walking down the aisle.

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No, it's not.

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Okay.

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All right.

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Just checking.

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There's way less drama with this one.

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I actually just want to just toss in there that, you know, there's, there has been controversy in the Christian tradition about where does it, where does the Spirit really come from, what, what's its source?

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But even in the Eastern church orthodoxy, it'd be recognized that it is one of the persons of, of the Godhead, of the Trinity.

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And so both traditions East and West, and this, this includes Community of Christ tradition believes that the spirit as God can be prayed to, can be adored, can be worshiped.

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We have hymns in Community of Christ Sings that are hymns to the Holy Spirit.

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In the worship traditions of the Western church, they're a great, amazing prayers to the Holy spirit.

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Like the, the ancient prayer of any creative spirit who's come, creator spirit come.

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And so the spirit is not less than the spirit of Scott.

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And thus we may, we, we may start a prayer and Charmaine and I both do this.

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Holy spirit common blessed this gathering or something like that.

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And so it's definitely, we're, we're talking to God, we're just talking to God the spirit.

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Well, that's really helpful.

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I think that that's a really good recap for us, for me, especially to remind, remind myself that the spirit is not less than the spirit is equal to[inaudible], which, because, and sometimes because maybe we are focuses on Father and Son so much because they are, they seem to have more of a defined boundary.

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We just talk about them so much more because we understand them.

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I think slightly better.

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We probably don't, but we think we do.

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We think we d o, r ight?

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T here's, there's more e lements o f, of the church of Christian life that we d esignate as being related to them.

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And the spirit is kind of a free agent.

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The spirit is that element that works with individuals that works not only, you know, with stirring their minds or bringing peace or bringing i nside or helping them know that they are forgiven or inviting them to, to repentance.

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It's, it's the element of God that, that touches people's awareness to remind them.

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So it's, it's, it's an inside job with the Holy Spirit that, a nd, and that's much harder than to either describe or p rose or prescribe that that must be the way the Spirit works.

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B ecause i f the Spirit is free to move as it wishes and and often in unexpected ways and in unexpected places you know, so if you've ever had a moment when you're suddenly in awe of beauty or, or you see, you look in someone's face and you see something more there, you see something of God's love or God's presence or, o r you see compassion there that, that just, you know, goes right to the roots of your soul.

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That's the Holy spirit.

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I'm alive, you know, making you alive to what's around you.

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And it's, it's really, it's pretty sneaky.

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And I like what Charmaine's saying.

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It's, it's so one of the, one of the problems with the hyper focus on the father and the son will say that, you know, the first and second persons of the Trinity in so much of our theology is that it, it's, it's the language.

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It's the language of the church and church life.

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And so in some respects it kind of takes, it pretends to take God captive to the church, you know, but the Spirit as this free agent, which I love that image the spirit is at work everywhere always.

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You know, there's an early section of the Doctrine and Covenants, I forget which one it is.

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It's six or 10 or somewhere in there where, where Joseph, where Joseph says put your trust in that spirit, which leads to, to do justly, to do, to do, to, to walk justly, to do kindness.

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This is my spirit.

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So wherever, wherever in the world, justice, kindness, love, mutuality concern for the poor and the marginalized where concerned for creation, whatever, wherever people are responding to that they are responding to the Holy spirit at work, in the creation.

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And that that gives us a kind of a breadth of breadth to understanding of God's work in the world.

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It keeps us from confining it somehow, strangely to just what's happening inside the church.

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I think.

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Yeah, I appreciate that very much.

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I, I kind of want to change the topic though.

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I want to go to a different place and I have two questions.

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And I don't, I think they go together, but you can either choose to answer one or whatever.

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So one of my questions is what does the Spirit actually do?

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If it does anything at all or maybe it just be's[ laughter].

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So that's one question.

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And the other one is, ever since I moved to Utah, I have heard this phrase that if you do such and such, you will lose the spirit.

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And to me, I, that sounds awful and not something that I would ever say to anyone.

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So, so what does the spirit do and is there in the doing, is there a way that you can lose the Spirit?

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That's I, that's funny.

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I, and when you say what does the spirit do?

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I'm thinking about the spirit with a timecard, you know, clocking in, clocking into work.

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what does the spirit do?

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Well, I think there's some very specific things that Christian tradition would say.

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One thing is that the Spirit helps us know Christ.

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It is that element, that clarifying of thought or heart that helps us to know Jesus to see who he is and what he can be for us individually and in the world.

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I think the Spirit could also be called the mm, the announcer of the kingdom, the one that helps us recognize those moments when we're experiencing something of the kingdom of God.

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It helps us to recognize those moments where God's power is at work around us and within us.

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But I think on a very personal level, it's does the heavy lifting of, I guess what we call spiritual formation.

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It is that which if, if we give it room and sometimes it doesn't ask for permission, it just barges in anyhow.

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It's what helps us attune ourselves to, to God, but to our own self awareness.

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It helps us to see ourselves.

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It helps remind us that we are loved.

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Even when we are feeling unworthy or feeling judged by other people or, or when we feel justifiably, when we feel guilt, it is often the spirit that is there to remind us that God's forgiveness is, is there for us.

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I mean, that was, you know, definitely true for me at one of the most pivotal experiences in my life was at a time when I was feeling very burdened with guilt.

00:24:39.050 --> 00:24:58.039
It was the spirit that brought words that someone else was saying to my heart and my mind and lifted the sense of, of guilt and, and the fear that, that somehow God couldn't love me because of things I've done.

00:24:58.400 --> 00:25:10.970
So it, it acts as a reminder that no matter where we are and, and what we've done, that God is continually inviting us.

00:25:11.210 --> 00:25:14.569
So it's, it's, it's the path creator.

00:25:14.630 --> 00:25:21.650
It creates a path for us to be reconvened and God's love.

00:25:22.460 --> 00:25:29.539
And so in that way, I would say it's, it's not frightened away at all by our imperfection.

00:25:30.019 --> 00:25:32.539
In fact, it's almost challenged by it.

00:25:32.540 --> 00:25:51.619
It's, it's the part of God that can keep working within us and around us to bring peace, to bring forgiveness, to bring assurance that we are known and accepted and loved by God and called to keep growing.

00:25:51.740 --> 00:25:53.599
So those are some of the things I would say.

00:25:53.601 --> 00:25:54.740
I think Tony's got some too.

00:25:55.630 --> 00:25:55.630
Yeah.

00:25:55.910 --> 00:25:57.650
Those are, those are great ones.

00:25:57.651 --> 00:26:01.940
And I love the idea of the spirit doing the heavy lifting in the new Testament.

00:26:03.079 --> 00:26:06.049
Christ was raised from the dead by the spirit.

00:26:06.050 --> 00:26:12.440
That's, that's pretty heavy lifting actually to, to, to bring the, you know, the crucified Christ to life again.

00:26:11.990 --> 00:26:19.309
So in Christian theology, the Spirit is the spirit that gives life to the dead.

00:26:20.809 --> 00:26:36.170
In Paul's theology, the spirit prays in us is when we, when we lack words for prayer and even when we think we've got words for prayer, the spirit prays in us as he says in Romans eight with sighs too deep for words and intercedes for us.

00:26:36.171 --> 00:26:39.230
The Spirit is constantly interceding on our behalf.

00:26:39.589 --> 00:26:47.549
And in that respect, the idea that somehow our, our mistakes or misdeeds could chase the spirit away is, is really blasphemous.

00:26:47.550 --> 00:26:55.349
I think that this, the spirit is always present ever trying to draw us more fully into God's life and love.

00:26:55.349 --> 00:27:00.150
And so the idea that we could somehow push it away, it gives us way more credit than we deserve.

00:27:00.210 --> 00:27:07.500
I think the, the spirit is the, Bart refers to the spirit as the teacher of the word.

00:27:08.099 --> 00:27:25.500
Meaning that scripture really is lifeless to us without the work of the Spirit to help us understand the, the short stories and the poetry and the fiction and the history and the give and take, the to and fro.

00:27:25.619 --> 00:27:40.920
In history, in scripture the Spirit is the, is the loving presence of God that's trying to guide us to better and better understandings of it.The spirit, this is where I think Migliori is chapter on the spirit is very helpful.

00:27:40.921 --> 00:27:47.250
The spirit is at work in justification, sanctification and vocation.

00:27:47.799 --> 00:27:49.049
Can you please define those?

00:27:50.910 --> 00:27:54.630
So justification is to put it simple.

00:27:55.769 --> 00:28:02.279
Justification means being, recognizing that we are accepted by God.

00:28:03.329 --> 00:28:05.250
We are loved and accepted by God.

00:28:05.400 --> 00:28:11.609
However, we come to recognize that that's justification and that's the work of the Spirit saying you, you belong.

00:28:11.611 --> 00:28:15.000
You are somebody you, you can't make God not love you.

00:28:15.299 --> 00:28:16.559
That's justification.

00:28:15.601 --> 00:28:26.759
Sanctification which sounds kind of ponderous really is how we learn to live in the ever present love of God.

00:28:27.059 --> 00:28:28.230
The Spirit is our guide there.

00:28:28.359 --> 00:28:34.319
The Spirit, the spirit slowly transforms us as we keep trying to respond to it.

00:28:35.369 --> 00:28:41.730
The spirit is ever drawing us forward even when we stumble and make mistakes and get off track.

00:28:42.049 --> 00:28:47.819
The Spirit is ever, ever pulling us in the direction and like a Godward direction.

00:28:48.269 --> 00:29:02.430
Gosh, I've heard hundreds and hundreds of testimonials of people saying when I look back at my life at this particular point where I was all messed up, now when I look back, I see that God was already at work trying to draw me out of that situation.

00:29:02.759 --> 00:29:04.950
Gosh, that's the Holy Spirit at work there.

00:29:05.130 --> 00:29:05.789
And so vocation.

00:29:07.441 --> 00:29:12.750
Ameliorates third one is the spirit is the one who implants callings in us.

00:29:13.140 --> 00:29:25.890
It calls us all to the work of a declaring living in seeking to build up the kingdom of God so that that vocation gives meaning to our lives and our discipleship.

00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:29.099
We are called, we are called to be disciples.

00:29:29.220 --> 00:29:32.430
In this spirit is the power that makes that real in us.

00:29:32.660 --> 00:29:41.279
So, and it's the spot, the power that that helps us keep working on those things inside of ourselves.

00:29:41.289 --> 00:30:13.630
You know, like when we find that we're, that we're jealous or we're finding we're recognize our own greed or our want for recognition or whatever, it's, it's the spirit that helps, helps us see that sometimes recognize it, name it, but it's also the spirit that that helps us find ways to let go of some of these things and trust that God's love and acceptance of us are enough to, to tell us of our worth.

00:30:14.529 --> 00:30:22.750
Rather than us trying to prove it through the acquiring of power or stuff or other people's approval.

00:30:23.140 --> 00:30:29.289
So the spirit is, is at work in the, in the corners of our minds and our hearts.

00:30:30.130 --> 00:30:35.349
Nudging us towards a change, little steps by little steps.

00:30:35.900 --> 00:30:44.019
When Jesus tells the disciples at the end of Matthew's gospel before he, he leaves them, I will be with you always.

00:30:44.829 --> 00:30:48.039
That being with us always, always means always.

00:30:48.670 --> 00:30:58.750
And so the spirit is the always present of God in our lives even when we mess up and the disciples constantly messed up, w e, we know that we just have to read the New Testament.

00:30:59.250 --> 00:31:01.900
Thus, thus it's really, really important for us.

00:31:03.339 --> 00:31:08.109
C arla to see the Holy Spirit always as a gift i n the New Testament.

00:31:08.529 --> 00:31:09.250
Constantly.

00:31:09.250 --> 00:31:11.950
The spirit i s, is referred to with gift language.

00:31:12.130 --> 00:31:14.079
The spirit is poured out into our hearts.

00:31:14.080 --> 00:31:16.269
Paul says in enrollments.

00:31:17.140 --> 00:31:25.359
The spirit is the gift of the spirit that then implants gifts in our lives for the use of the common good in the community.

00:31:26.440 --> 00:31:36.670
Any, any talk about e arning Spirit is really problematic because it turns our relationship with the spirit into a kind of a business deal or transaction.

00:31:36.670 --> 00:31:40.869
We do X and then the spirit will be there and give us Y no, not at all.

00:31:41.259 --> 00:31:47.650
The very, the very ability to do the X is already guided and nurtured by the Spirit.

00:31:47.651 --> 00:31:57.400
So the Spirit is the gift of God's faithful presence in our lives always.

00:31:57.849 --> 00:32:01.089
I think that's really important for us to keep in mind.

00:32:01.960 --> 00:32:06.940
And it took a couple of other things that come to mind here that Paul refers to.

00:32:06.941 --> 00:32:08.859
The spirit is the spirit of freedom.

00:32:10.000 --> 00:32:14.230
And he says in second Corinthians that, you know where the spirit of the Lord is there is freedom.

00:32:14.710 --> 00:32:24.730
And so structures that, that constrict and damage and harm life, those are not places where the Spirit is at work.

00:32:25.779 --> 00:32:33.190
The Spirit is at work, always trying to bring greater freedom to human beings, freedom to be our truest selves.

00:32:33.191 --> 00:32:35.980
That's, that's part of what the spirit is doing in the world.

00:32:36.519 --> 00:32:45.140
And therefore liberation theologians have really focused on this dimension of the Spirit's work, that the spirit is the spirit of liberation.

00:32:45.710 --> 00:32:56.599
And so where wherever there are people working to, to help people get free from various kinds of bondage that's the Spirit at work already.

00:32:57.170 --> 00:33:00.380
And then another thing is that the Spirit is the prophetic Spirit.

00:33:00.410 --> 00:33:04.549
This is important in community of Christ as the prophetic spirit back prophetic here.

00:33:04.550 --> 00:33:09.079
We don't mean the spirit helps us predict the far off future if that's not what the prophets did.

00:33:09.740 --> 00:33:19.789
Instead the prophets were agents, agents of the Spirit in ancient Israel to call, call God's people back to the path of justice.

00:33:20.539 --> 00:33:28.279
And so the prophetic spirit is then the Spirit that calls the church to pursue justice and equity and compassion in the world.

00:33:28.809 --> 00:33:32.299
Even if that means going against the political powers that be to do it.

00:33:32.599 --> 00:33:35.750
So the Holy Spirit's, Holy spirit is pretty, pretty busy.

00:33:35.950 --> 00:33:35.950
Yeah.

00:33:35.970 --> 00:33:36.470
Yeah.

00:33:36.500 --> 00:33:38.059
Maybe getting over time even.

00:33:40.089 --> 00:33:43.869
Good thing the Holy Spirit has a punch clock or touch, whatever it is.

00:33:44.019 --> 00:33:44.740
Yes.

00:33:44.859 --> 00:33:52.930
So I've been known to say that there is nothing you can do that will make God love you any more or any less than God already does.

00:33:53.170 --> 00:34:04.509
So it sounds like I can add to that and say there's nothing that you could do that would make you lose the Spirit or gain more of the Spirit than you already have.

00:34:05.380 --> 00:34:06.039
Is that true?

00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:06.480
Yup.

00:34:06.809 --> 00:34:17.219
And I would, I would probably even say it's, it's less of a commodity as, as the, the Spirit is something you can have more or less of.

00:34:17.579 --> 00:34:23.789
And maybe put it again into that idea of a presence or a relationship.

00:34:25.170 --> 00:34:52.380
That the, the nearest notice of the Spirit or the willingness of the spirit to be at work around us and within us is, can, can't be, can't be scared away that, that, that, that the Spirit is really persistent and is, is like that friend who doesn't give up on us even when we are really bad friend.

00:34:53.550 --> 00:35:13.530
Because the Spirit is w one of the aspects of God that is most convinced and most convincing to us that God knows us and loves us and finds all kinds of creative ways to, to remind us of that and assure us of that.

00:35:14.250 --> 00:35:17.289
I, I can think of an excellent place to illustrate this very thing.

00:35:17.769 --> 00:35:20.739
And that's if you read the whole letter of First Corinthians.

00:35:21.429 --> 00:35:24.429
So, so, all right.

00:35:24.431 --> 00:35:31.659
So the, the, the Christian community in Corinth was, how can I say this nicely?

00:35:32.019 --> 00:35:33.519
They were totally messed up.

00:35:34.030 --> 00:35:36.730
They're so dysfunctional in so many ways.

00:35:37.769 --> 00:35:42.690
Gosh, there's a member of the congregation who sleeping with his stepmother.

00:35:43.260 --> 00:35:56.699
There's male members of the congregation that are going probably to visit Aphrodite priestesses, not just to worship, actually, not just to have a chat, not just to have a chat and not just not just for pastoral counseling.

00:35:56.311 --> 00:36:02.099
The people in the congregation are suing each other in public courts.

00:36:02.400 --> 00:36:05.940
They're arguing over food and who, who can eat what.

00:36:05.969 --> 00:36:09.929
And when they're arguing over worship practices.

00:36:10.199 --> 00:36:16.170
There are people in the congregation who think they are smarter and wiser than others and are saying are more spiritual or more spiritual.

00:36:16.710 --> 00:36:24.719
And for all that community's dysfunction, Paul's language is that they have been blessed in every way by the spirit.

00:36:24.721 --> 00:36:26.460
The spirit hasn't left them.

00:36:27.030 --> 00:36:32.969
That's the very reason Paul can call them to kind of start living up to what the spirit really is.

00:36:33.420 --> 00:36:33.630
Right?

00:36:33.630 --> 00:36:43.650
So you just have to read your way through First Corinthians, Carla, and you will, you will feel quite, quite convinced that there's nothing you can do that will drive the Spirit away.

00:36:44.079 --> 00:36:50.579
What what might happen is that there are things you can do that will, will sublimate your awareness of the Spirit's presence.

00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:54.630
But the Spirit is, is really persistent, really sneaky.

00:36:54.630 --> 00:36:59.340
And we'll find a way to remind you that you need to probably move in this direction.

00:36:59.800 --> 00:37:11.159
So I commend first Corinthians to you Carla as an example of a, a completely spiraling church that Paul says still has the Spirit.

00:37:12.050 --> 00:37:24.260
Well, I, that's really helpful and I remembered being in your seminary class and I actually was just, I just, the other day I found something that you wrote and that was really helpful.

00:37:24.260 --> 00:37:26.159
It's called the mini sins of Corinth.

00:37:26.599 --> 00:37:27.920
Is that our song?

00:37:29.179 --> 00:37:30.380
I t's your song Charmaine.

00:37:30.880 --> 00:37:38.320
Charmaine I really initiated that and got that going and I added a few verses, but, but it's, yeah, it's ours, but it's mostly Charmaine's and that's pretty fun.

00:37:38.840 --> 00:37:39.949
It's pretty good.

00:37:39.951 --> 00:37:41.239
I'm going to sing just a few of them.

00:37:41.570 --> 00:37:54.139
In the first tone did Carinthia apostle warns everything these schnockered at communion, resurrection, doubting many tons of speaking, eating meat from idols, Temple maids a laying.

00:37:54.139 --> 00:37:56.940
Is that what you talking about?

00:37:57.099 --> 00:37:57.099
That was a good one, wasn't it?

00:37:57.099 --> 00:37:57.099
(laughter).

00:37:57.099 --> 00:38:04.579
I mean, and last one is, and a man sleeping with his step mom.

00:38:05.449 --> 00:38:07.429
It's a really solid song.

00:38:07.909 --> 00:38:12.219
So when you started talking about, of course my mind went directly back to that important.

00:38:12.460 --> 00:38:15.289
And that you could find it that quickly i s somewhat worrisome to me, Carla.

00:38:16.159 --> 00:38:21.920
I just literally saw it the other day, so I just want to be completely clear about this.

00:38:22.340 --> 00:38:34.820
That me as a Bishop with all of my divine magical powers, I cannot steal someone's Spirit away from them or tell them that they do not have the spirit with them.

00:38:35.530 --> 00:38:36.230
Are you sure?

00:38:37.150 --> 00:38:39.760
Well, you can say it, but it won't be true.

00:38:40.059 --> 00:38:42.130
Okay, well I wouldn't say it anyway.

00:38:42.309 --> 00:38:50.110
I just wanted to make sure that everyone listening understood that, that no one can say that they have lost it and then it's not there anymore because it is there.

00:38:50.110 --> 00:38:52.809
It is God's gift for everyone.

00:38:53.230 --> 00:38:53.230
Yeah.

00:38:53.480 --> 00:38:55.750
I think that's a really, really important point.

00:38:55.751 --> 00:39:07.059
It's certainly an appointing point, important point for people to here in Utah because I think that people hear that the opposite of that all too frequently and I really hate it.

00:39:09.519 --> 00:39:13.690
It really, it strips away God's goodness.

00:39:13.869 --> 00:39:25.300
And that is the, the message that Christ that Jesus brought in, in every, in every encounter, in every healing.

00:39:25.480 --> 00:39:34.599
And every forgiving is God's goodness and God's desire for us to experience God's reign in our midst.

00:39:35.360 --> 00:39:35.360
Absolutely.

00:39:35.670 --> 00:39:43.230
The, the, the change that God wants to make in our lives, God is also present to empower in our lives.

00:39:43.320 --> 00:39:49.139
That's the spirit present to empower change as we respond without the presence of the spirit.

00:39:49.141 --> 00:39:51.840
There is no, there is no changing or growing.

00:39:51.840 --> 00:39:54.030
It's the Spirit of the spirit helps us grow.

00:39:54.030 --> 00:40:23.130
So, and if, and if people, if guilt is what is laid on people that often is what blinds them, their hearts in their minds to, to being able to recognize the spirit and even their, the spirit is, is trying to get underneath the, the guilt and the shame or what other ever other things other people may put on, on to each other.

00:40:24.119 --> 00:40:26.369
To that liberation part.

00:40:27.090 --> 00:40:27.380
Yeah.

00:40:27.579 --> 00:40:27.849
Yeah.

00:40:28.210 --> 00:40:35.110
And that can be, that can be, yeah, personal and in S in one's private life, it's also social too.

00:40:36.250 --> 00:40:41.199
The civil rights movement was a work of the Holy Spirit in our world.

00:40:42.429 --> 00:40:48.460
The environmental movement today is a work of the Spirit in our world.

00:40:48.489 --> 00:40:50.469
I think we can clearly say that.

00:40:50.789 --> 00:41:03.340
So the spirit is trying to help us as individuals and as society and as a society grow into the love of God that's ever present instead of trying to, you know, pretend it's not there and go our own way.

00:41:03.639 --> 00:41:07.059
The love of God that is for all people and all of creation.

00:41:07.300 --> 00:41:07.840
Absolutely.

00:41:08.900 --> 00:41:23.030
So I know that I've been speaking about denominations here in Utah, but I think overall that a lot of denominations are pretty suspicious of the spirit because it's least able, I, I'm guessing because it feels least able to be controlled.

00:41:23.179 --> 00:41:31.579
And I remember working in my work in the church, I remember this woman who desperately, desperately wanted to speak in tongues.

00:41:31.639 --> 00:41:33.619
That was one of the only things she to do.

00:41:34.039 --> 00:41:37.820
And I just kept thinking why?

00:41:37.969 --> 00:41:41.869
And I, you know, like she, she prayed all the time to speak in tongues.

00:41:41.871 --> 00:41:42.679
That's all she wanted.

00:41:42.681 --> 00:41:53.030
And so like, I feel like we want the Spirit to do exactly what we want it to do and it, and does it rarely, rarely seems to work out that way.

00:41:55.059 --> 00:41:55.719
Yeah.

00:41:55.750 --> 00:42:18.190
I mean in, in some, in some denominations and in some parts of denominations, particularly those that are more charismatic or Pentecostal, the demonstration of spiritual, what's often called spiritual gifts, things like speaking in tongues or in p rophecy.

00:42:19.269 --> 00:42:30.789
Sometimes like physical healing words of counsel those kinds of things are really sought after.

00:42:31.329 --> 00:42:35.500
And, and that is almost like the commodifying thing.

00:42:35.501 --> 00:42:38.559
You know, I've got more Spirit than, than you do.

00:42:38.739 --> 00:42:40.659
It can become competitive.

00:42:41.710 --> 00:42:49.719
And this is, I mean the Spirit has its nose, its n ose, its own mind and its own way.

00:42:49.960 --> 00:42:55.239
And there are some denominations that really nurture a place for the spirit to be expressed.

00:42:56.079 --> 00:43:21.099
But there is also with that some inherent dangers and that is that if demonstrate demonstrable expressions of the Spirit is what gives you authority, then that becomes that t hing you're talking about trying to control the Spirit so that I can be seen as special in some way.

00:43:21.280 --> 00:43:25.719
I have this special gift from the spirit, but Paul speaks to that too.

00:43:25.721 --> 00:43:34.360
And, and he again says, you know, the, you can have all of these gifts, but if you don't have love, they don't matter.

00:43:34.480 --> 00:43:35.889
They don't mean anything.

00:43:36.400 --> 00:43:44.980
And, and I don't know if that's exactly where you're going, but I think that's both the beauty of the Spirit in those denominations that are more charismatic or Pentecostal.

00:43:45.190 --> 00:44:01.659
But it is also sometimes then the danger that there can be you know, some gifts are seen as superior or even essential to being seen as fully baptized into Christ.

00:44:02.650 --> 00:44:08.050
That you can't become a member until you've demonstrated some of these gifts of the Spirit.

00:44:08.440 --> 00:44:15.579
And I think that that then is saying, you know, we control the Spirit.

00:44:15.849 --> 00:44:31.090
We can make, we, it will help us create and sustain our structure within our denomination of w ho's really spiritual, w ho's really has authority and who doesn't.

00:44:31.949 --> 00:44:43.019
And that's one of the r easons other denominations are concerned about the spirit is because it can't be, it can't be pigeonholed.

00:44:44.369 --> 00:44:59.010
And so sometimes the talk about the Spirit or even the invitation for a broader expression of the spirit within the c hurches life gets, gets narrowed down.

00:44:59.960 --> 00:45:00.349
Yeah.

00:45:01.190 --> 00:45:01.429
Yeah.

00:45:01.460 --> 00:45:04.909
It's, that's an interesting experience you're sharing there, Carla.

00:45:04.911 --> 00:45:20.420
I, I think there's a tendency, I mean, all of us have to struggle with the issue of wanting self-affirmation of wanting something that will prove that somehow we're special.

00:45:21.889 --> 00:45:35.210
St Augusta refers to this as self-love, not, not self acceptance, which is a good thing, but, but self love is love that is focused inwardly on me in the ranks me the center.

00:45:35.500 --> 00:45:35.500
Yeah.

00:45:35.539 --> 00:45:35.719
Yeah.

00:45:35.789 --> 00:45:37.039
It's in the wrong direction.

00:45:37.070 --> 00:45:54.650
And so the gifts of the spirit can be used in ways that create division that creates separation, that exalt individuals' egos that you know, destroy community.

00:45:54.980 --> 00:46:02.840
So one yeah, one needs to be very thoughtful and careful and discerning about the Spirit's work in the church.

00:46:03.800 --> 00:46:11.690
It's, you know, just just because something, just because something is a form or structure doesn't mean it's wrong.

00:46:12.170 --> 00:46:17.239
And just because something is a free form expression doesn't mean that it's right.

00:46:17.240 --> 00:46:18.570
It's there.

00:46:18.599 --> 00:46:26.869
There's always, I mean, discernment is discernment of the spirit is an ongoing discipline of the Christian life.

00:46:27.320 --> 00:46:35.360
And so the, the woman you're mentioning who just desperately wanted to speak in tongues, gosh, I hope at some point somebody said to her, tell me about that.

00:46:35.539 --> 00:46:37.280
What, what is it you think you'll get from that?

00:46:37.539 --> 00:46:39.170
What, why do you want that so badly?

00:46:39.769 --> 00:46:43.699
Do you think perhaps that is that proof that God loves you?

00:46:44.000 --> 00:46:45.650
What, what, what do you need there?

00:46:46.550 --> 00:46:52.010
So there, there's, there's surely a need being expressed there that's not being met.

00:46:52.130 --> 00:47:03.619
And that's one of those cases where we're pastoral care and spiritual direction I think are very, it can be very helpful for guiding someone back, back to the center a little bit.

00:47:06.570 --> 00:47:07.409
I appreciate that.

00:47:07.411 --> 00:47:20.280